PDA

View Full Version : Unknown Tinnie - R.F.S.I.-Berlin


Albion
16th May 2010, 14:12
Hello Everyone,
Had this metal 3,8cm x 4,0cm tinnie a number of years, have always thought it belonged to a Frontkämpfer unit or Stahlhelmbund, but having looked through my Tieste & Hüsken catalogs I can't find a grouping it belongs too. Could any member point me in the right direction, at least explain what the R.F.S.I. abbreviation stands for.
Cheers

Sergeant 08
16th May 2010, 14:39
Hello Everyone,
Had this metal 3,8cm x 4,0cm tinnie a number of years, have always thought it belonged to a Frontkämpfer unit or Stahlhelmbund, but having looked through my Tieste & Hüsken catalogs I can't find a grouping it belongs too. Could any member point me in the right direction, at least explain what the R.F.S.I. abbreviation stands for.
Cheers

I think it is RFST = Reichsfrontsoldatentag (event tinnie of "Der Stahlhelm").

wilhelm saris
16th May 2010, 16:42
Hello,

in volume 2 from the headgear-series, Headgear of Hitler's Germany, chapter 5
about veterans organizations all festival and rally badges were discussed.
The one shown is for Der Stahlhelm, Bund der Frontsoldaten.
They were officially allowed to be worn at the left breast pocket at the day of the rally. The official ones were allowed to be worn at the left side of the vap band from the visored cap.

The first one which officially was to be worn at the cap was for the 8. Reichsfrontsoldatentag, held at Berlin in 1927 (8 and 9.of May).

The shown badge was for the 13.Frontsoldatentag, held also in Berlin (3 and 4 September 1932).
The brass version of The Erinnerungsabzeichen was worn by participants, who joined the meeting in Berlin for the first time;
the silver version of the badge, which was a Tagungsabzeichen, was to be worn by participants who were involved with the Frontsoldatenappell at Berlin for the second time. So, there is a difference in color.


There was asked for a special badge for mototcyclist, but this was refused by the High Command.

Information comes from:
Am Scheerer Fernrohr, nr.7 from August 7, 1932;
Die Woche am Brandenburger Tor, Nr.22 from September 1, 1932;
Bundesnachtichten, Der Stahlhelm from August 28, 1932.

Hope this is understandable!
Wilhelm

wilhelm saris
16th May 2010, 16:47
The badge looks like a tinny and in some ways it is, but a tinny most often was only allowed to be worn during the duration of the event.

Here it is different:
The official Stahlhelm-badges for special events were also allowed to be worn after that (as explained) and one should consider them at the same stage as for example the Potsdam-badge for the HJ or even some of the SA official badges.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 08:47
It is an interesting subject, these special badges for those events from Der Stahlhelm and to me it seems that not much collectors know which are the official event-badges for any of the Frontsoldatentage. I will post them from the 8th Frontsoldatentag, as this is when they started to wear them. I also will give some valuable information and show, when I can, photographs of wearing. It is possible I can quickly do this job, but on the other hand it can take a few days before I am done with all. Most of the material is taken from the 2nd volume of Headgear of Hitler's Germany, as I do not know exactly where I put the original developed photographs, used in that book.
From then on you all know what are the official ones, and so not being a simple tinnie!

The thread started with the 13th. Frontsoldatentag. Shown are two versions:
at left the brass one for participants, who participated for the first time a meeting, held at Berlin (excuse for having no colored photographs, as the badges were photographed in the seventies). The version on the right is in silver with black painted number and abbreviation. As mentioned this one was worn by those that participated at Berlin for the second time.

Also is shown with one photograph the correctly wearing upon the left breast. The photograph is taken at the rally from 1932.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 09:36
This festivity was held at Berlin in 1927 with the dates 8 and 9 of May.
The badge was silvered and consists of a shield with in the upper part the Brandenburg Gate. The name for the city was written in the upper section of the shield, in the lower portion there was the date 1927. In the middle of the shield a steel helmet is visible.

The photograph shows the Prince of Prussia August Wilhelm, who signed this photograph at Emden and dated it 8/9, 1928. Note he wears the 8th RFST badge upon his left lapel, just beneath the steel-helmet insignia.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 09:43
This festivity was held at Hamburg in 1927 with the dates 2 and 3 of June.
The badge was silvered with an antique finish and consists of a star with rays with a square on the tip in the middlen with a standing figure with a sword.

The photograph shows a "sleeping beauty" during the 1933 Stahlhelmtag at Hannover. He does wear correctly the festivity-bdage upon left of his tunic. As ordered he does wear the older badges with his cap, upon the cap band:
first (seen at left) the rally badge from Berlin 1927; the rally badge for Hamburg in 1928 and the rally badge for Koblenz from 1930. Note he is a flag-bearer as he does wear the leather should belt for flag bearers.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 10:19
Held at Munich on June 1 and 2, 1929. Two forms do exist. Both were manufactured by Carl Poellath from Schrobenhausen. They are from stamped steel and brass and are finished in silver or are silver painted.

a) the so-called Tagungsabzeichen, the congress badge, for participants. It is known as the first form. The badge consists of an Edelweiss with a steel-helmet in its middle. Upon the steel-helmet is the legend Der Stahlhelm .
In the upper part in a half circle is the legend 10.REICHSFRONTSOLDATENTAG and in the lower 1.u.2.VI. MÜNCHEN 1929. This form was allowed to be worn in later years with the visored cap;
b) Erinnerungs- und Festabzeichen (commemorative or festival badge). The Edelweiss is formed differently, but it has also the steel-helmet with legend.
In the upper part in a half circle is the same indication as with a, but in the lower part (not in a half circle) is the word MÜNCHEN and 1929.
This badge was for family members and non-participants and was NOT allowed to be worn with the cap.

The wearing is shown with some photographs with the next post

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 10:28
The promised photographs:
wear a: Jungstahlhelmführer Körner, photographed in November 1929. He wears the Munich badge upon his right collar. This was officially permitted. A year later he would wear it normally upon the left side of his cap. Note the two cuffbands: Ostfriesland as well as Bayern;
wear b: an old, but for the Stahlhelm-organization important person. From the original photograph it is known he wears the version for non-participants. His position would have allowed to wear the first form;
wear c: the wearing of the badge upon the lapel of the tunic. The shown person does wear a cuffband with the wording Südwest-Afrika. Otto Meyer
did live there for years;
wear d: Seldte does wear the Munich badge upon the capband;
wear e: another photograph with a correct wearing.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 10:37
Held at Koblenz on 4 and 5 of October 1930.
The badge is a shield form, topped with a steel-helmet. It is finished in silver.
Notice the wave, which represents the river Rhine. In the upper part the legend for the day is positioned; in the lower part of the shield the legend "Stahlhelm am Rhein".

Shown is the badge and the wearing:
first by a high ranked leader. He does wear two rally badges with his cap (note no chin-strap is in use). The first badge is for Koblenz, the second one is for Munich 1929;
the second photograph shows a father with his son (Fritz). He is Dr. Reichsgraf von Ingelheim Echter zu Mespelbrunn, photographed at Heidelberg October 17, 1930. He wears the badge upon his left lapel. Note his many orders and decorations. Also Fritz does wear the rally-badge.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 10:41
Held at Breslau on 30 and 31 of May 1931.
The badge is a silvered stamped eagle, patterned on the design for the Silezian eagle (Schlesischer Adler), but with the head facing to its right. A ribbon decoration has the legend for the day in the abbreviated form XII RFST. Another ribbon in the lower part reads 30.31 Mai Breslau 1931.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 10:42
Is the badge the thread started with.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 10:58
The 14th. RFST was planned for the 1st through 3rd September 1933 at Hannover. This congress was postponed because of the nazis until 8th through 10th of September. The day was officially renamed Stahlhelmtag 1933.
Due to the incorporation, Stahlhelm-members were ordered to attend the NSDAP party rallies at Nürnberg. This was in fact the second time the Stahlhelm-rally was postponed. This time by Hitler, as he intended to attend the Stahlhelm-leaders meeting, but only on September 22-24 as these dates were open in his scedule.
So the Stahlhelmtag 1933 was therefore cancelled on orders of Seldte en new instructions for the Reichsführertagung were awaited.
info from: Führer-Briefe Nr.24 from July 29, 1933;
Der Stahlhelm, Nr. 35 from August 27, 1933 with a special message.

In the first week of September Seldte and his staff published a new guidance for the participation at Hannover. SA-Stabsschef Röhm was also invited. The following persons were ordered to participate:
a) all leaders of the Wehrstahlhelm with te ranks Gruppenführer and upwards;
b) all flags of the organization with one standard bearer and two companions;
c) all Wehrsportorganisations from the Hannover district;
d) the females section was also ordered to participate with their leaders, as were the Scharnhorst-leaders with the ranks Ortsgruppenführer and upwards.

The badge was manufactured in silvered tombak or metal and consisted of a steel-helmet, which topped a shield with its legend 14.RFST, two crossed horse-heads, the well-known symbol of the aera. Beneath this was the legend Hannover 1933 and in the lowest part an Iron Cross.

The reason that the legend 14.RFST was used instead of Stahlhelmtag, was that the badges already were manufactured and paid for by the Stahlhelm-members, who intended to participate during the congress.
The tombak version was in use by members from the Scharnhorst youth and the Stahlhelm females, while the silvered metal version was worn by all male Stahlhelm-comrades.

The photographs come with the next post.

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 11:07
The first photograph is the well-known badge, followed by:
a) W.Schrader, who was fromn Wilhelmshaven and was photographed November 1, 1933. He was a Sturmführer from SA-Sturm 44/5. With the photograph he is wearing his Jungstahlhelm-leaders indication with the shoulder-belt;
b) an Ortsgruppenleiter and his deputy from Mid-Germany (Thrüringen).
They do wear (in different positions) the badge upon left of the tunic;
c) an Ortsgruppenführer from the Ostmark-district. He does wear the badge upon left of the cap;
d) the last photograph is with its original caption from the earlier mentioned second volume in the headgear-series. With this it is obvious something more is told about in these books as only caps. This goes for the rest of the series too!

I hope the given information does enjoy and learns you some new things.
Not having much time these days I felt I should give you all access too the information.

regards,
wilhelm

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 16:34
about post 9: I used another photograph where the arms are not visible. I will look if I can find the one where he wears the both cuffbands.
Sorry!

wilhelm saris
17th May 2010, 16:39
Here is the one from Körner with the two cuffbands!
The Edelweiss-form is also here worn upon his collar, right side.

Albion
17th May 2010, 20:10
Hello Wilhelm,
Many thanks for a wonderful set of posts, photographs and your time and trouble - fantastic. Its given me an insight into a organization, which I only had a sketchy knowledge of, to be truthful almost no knowledge of, not realizing, it was a organization of depth & some substance.
I see now, looking at your pictures, I also have a badge from the 14th Meeting in Hannover. I did pick up fairly quickly after my initial posting, Sergeant08 post, from which I googled the organization, coming across a couple of brass badges, thinking them just a manufactures variant - but I know different now. It makes me wonder, how many different badges I've past by in my ignorance thinking them just day tinnies. One question on the first to seventh meetings, is there any evidence of badges being made for these meetings?.Once again thanks for your time and trouble - its makes belonging to this forum so worthwhile.
Cheers - Good Luck

wilhelm saris
18th May 2010, 06:20
As far as my information goes, which also includes contacts with former Stahlhelm-members, which I met during various meetings, an allowance to visit the Stahlhelm-Archiv and quite a large file of about 30 porfolio's with lots of material about the organization, it's meetings and uniforms, it is practically sure that no of such badges were granted earlier before 1927. There is no evidence about that at all, nor was anything mentioned.

Most collectors do not know the Stahlhelm-organization is a most interesting organization. See somewhere on the WWM-forum the special badges with the year-numbers. Also most interesting are the insignia, to be worn with their shoulder-belts (also some to be found on this forum), but also of interest were all of their cuffbands with districts-names and arm-patches and in later years their (colored) collar-patches. Most people do not have any idea about the Kraftfahrstaffel, the driver's from the organization, the Stahlhelm-Marine, the Jungstahlhelm and Scharnhorst or the Stahlhelm-Frauen and Luisenbund.
All of these having some special insignia.

The Stahlhelm already was quite a large organization when AH and his nazis just were an "embryo"! The later nazis NSKK, Frauenschaft and other organizations became bigger when the Stahlhelm was incorporated. The Stahlhelm and the Verein zur Umschulung Freiw. Arbeitskräfte were the main labour organizations, which grew into the NSAD and later RAD.

Wilhelm

wilhelm saris
18th May 2010, 16:43
Hello all,

is nobody able to fill in with photographs of any of the mentioned and shown badges (with a good quality) or does not have any of you a photograph in his possession of the wearing of any of the particular official badges, which look like a tinnie, but in fact are much more then that.
A tinnie largely only is meant for the event. These rally badges are allowed to be worn with everyday use with the uniform: first year with the tunic and after that with the visored cap!.

I see only viewers, no active cooperation. A pity! Is it so difficult to have such a badge in your collection? Possibly never paid any attention to them, as they were thought to be a tinnie!!

Wilhelm

Albion
18th May 2010, 18:57
Wilhelm,
I'll have a look through my collection tomorrow, see what I can dig out. Don't have much of a between the wars military photo collection though. See what I've got.
Cheers

wilhelm saris
18th May 2010, 19:00
Hi Albion,

thanks. Could you eventually make a photograph from the badge from which this thread started with? Maybe also others can bring in their insignia in front and reverses, to make this thread as complete as possible.

best regards,
wilhelm

Krullies
18th May 2010, 19:07
...Stahlhelm-Frauen and Luisenbund.
All of these having some special insignia...

Guys, sorry, bluntly barging in, pardon if I ask something silly, but Luisenbund, is that Königin Luise Bund but spelled differently? If it IS, it is NOT the same as Stahlhelm-Frauen is it? Or is Stahlhelm-Frauen + Luisenbund 1 + the same thing? The info I find is not quite clear, or perhaps my head isn't, but, anything Frau(en) Betreffend, well, just being genderly biased in my interest ...

This thread, MUST be put under "most interesting threads" ... its AWESOME info http://www.smileygarden.de/smilie/Schleifchen-Girls/smilie_girl_020.gif and SO much of it!

Going back to my reading chair silently,
Karin-Renate

wilhelm saris
18th May 2010, 19:19
Bund Köningin Luise and Stahlhelm-Frauenbund are two different organizations.
The Stahlhelm females started to organize in 1924 and named "Stahlhelm-Frauenhilfe" and in 1926 renamed into "Stahlhelm-
Frauenbund". A section for young girls was known as "Mädchengruppe" and for the youngest "Kückengruppe".
In February 1934 the Stahlhelm-Frauenbund was absorbed within the NS-Frauenwerk, the sub-organization for the NS-Frauenschaft. The girls disappeared within the BDM and Jungmädel.

The Bund Köningin Luise also for females for Stahlhelm-members was instituted in 1923 and was very close to the Stahlhelm. One could be a member from both simultaneously. This females organization was also known as "Deutscher Frauenbund". The younger girls were known as "Kormblümchengruppe", due to thei cornflower-blue clothings. They were in 1934 abolished, their females could join the nazi females-groups.

Difficult. No, I think!

Albion
19th May 2010, 17:06
Hello Wilhelm,
As requested here's photos of my two badges, two photos I've culled, and a few photos from a Der Stahlhelm Ausweis I own, which actually was issued to a member of a Jungstahlhelm Gruppe, who joined at 19 in April 1930 until September 1933, if you need any further ausweis pictures let me know.
Cheers

wilhelm saris
19th May 2010, 17:26
Thanks, this is great to see the brass and other version.
I will show now an original 1929 postcard for the 10.Reichsfrontsoldatentag
and some news-paper cuttings (2 copies and one original), where the eagle symbol was used.

wilhelm

Sergeant 08
27th May 2010, 15:40
These badges are really interesting. But I have nothing to add to this thread.
I must be careful, that I will not start to collect such badges ;). You can not collect all nice stuff....

Sergeant 08
13th July 2010, 18:05
Not in my collection, but very nice items. The 1930 and another 1933 badge!

wilhelm saris
13th July 2010, 18:59
11.Reichsfrontsoldatentag at Koblenz, 4-5 October 1930;

This is somewhat difficult to explain.
This was planned as the 14. Reichsfrontsoldatentag to be held at Hannover, 1-3 September 1933. This congress was postphoned until 8-10 September.
The day was renamed simple as Stahlhelmtag.
In fact it then was twice postphoned, due to the Reichsparteitag where Stahlhelm-members were asked to attend. And so it finally became 22-24 September, as Stahlhelmtag 1933.

Sergeant 08
13th July 2010, 20:40
Here it is different:
The official Stahlhelm-badges for special events were also allowed to be worn after that (as explained) and one should consider them at the same stage as for example the Potsdam-badge for the HJ or even some of the SA official badges.

Official Stahlhelm badges for special events? That means the RFST badges?

I guess this badge wasn't allowed to wear it later, right?

wilhelm saris
14th July 2010, 06:58
No, this one wasn't allowed to be worn later. Only at the day the event was held.
The official ones to be worn during an official RFST event: at the day upon the breast; the next year at the left side of the visored cap.

Sergeant 08
14th July 2010, 21:26
The official ones to be worn during an official RFST event: at the day upon the breast; the next year at the left side of the visored cap.

I found a very rare Wehrwolf photo, which shows a similar practice. The Wehrwolf was founded as the "little brother" of the Stahlhelm. Later the Wehrwolf found an own political way. Do you have informations about the regulations of the Wehrwolf? Similar?

wilhelm saris
14th July 2010, 21:36
For the Stahlhelm this was arranged officially, but when exactly I do not know. It could be the Stahlhelm-Handbuch from 1931. The special event badges for the Front Soldier's days were allowed to be worn since 1927.
In the mid-twenties the Wehrwolf took over many of the Stahlhelm-practices, but it then was not yet arranged for Der Stahlhelm. I regulation about this for the Wehrwolf I haven't seen.

Sergeant 08
14th July 2010, 21:48
I regulation about this for the Wehrwolf I haven't seen.

The Wehrwolf had never had so many members like the Stahlhelm. And there were a lot of differences between the regions. I guess there were no official regulations. But who knows...

wilhelm saris
14th July 2010, 21:53
In the beginning there were practically no differences at all, while most leaders for Wehrwolf were Stahlhelm-leaders. They were the supervisors in some ways. This is written in statements from the German government.

Sergeant 08
14th July 2010, 22:07
In the beginning there were practically no differences at all, while most leaders for Wehrwolf were Stahlhelm-leaders. They were the supervisors in some ways. This is written in statements from the German government.

Later it was forbidden to be member in both organizations. The reason? The Stahlhelm tried to absorb the Wehrwolf! The Wehrwolf was not amused and the result was a new rule...A decision! Wehrwolf or Stahlhelm member!

PS: Here is member from the early days! He was in both organizations.

wilhelm saris
14th July 2010, 22:13
Nice to see this.
The information I have from the German government from the mid-twenties was from the Staatsarchiv in the DDR. I had to write all down and was not allowed to copy anything. I even had to sign a letter that I would not publish it!
So my stuff is done in type-writing later, taken over from the handwritten notes, and with this anyone can say that it is not original. I see no reasons to use it publicly as I do not want discussions!

Maybe all this old material is now in the Bundearchiv, but in what file do not ask me. I had file-numbers for the German customs from the DDR-archive. These days they even do not know where this stuff is located in the BA!

der-hase-fee
15th July 2010, 11:58
The 14th. RFST was planned for the 1st through 3rd September 1933 at Hannover. This congress was postponed because of the nazis until 8th through 10th of September. The day was officially renamed Stahlhelmtag 1933.
Due to the incorporation, Stahlhelm-members were ordered to attend the NSDAP party rallies at Nürnberg. This was in fact the second time the Stahlhelm-rally was postponed. This time by Hitler, as he intended to attend the Stahlhelm-leaders meeting, but only on September 22-24 as these dates were open in his scedule.
So the Stahlhelmtag 1933 was therefore cancelled on orders of Seldte en new instructions for the Reichsführertagung were awaited.
info from: Führer-Briefe Nr.24 from July 29, 1933;
Der Stahlhelm, Nr. 35 from August 27, 1933 with a special message.

In the first week of September Seldte and his staff published a new guidance for the participation at Hannover. SA-Stabsschef Röhm was also invited. The following persons were ordered to participate:
a) all leaders of the Wehrstahlhelm with te ranks Gruppenführer and upwards;
b) all flags of the organization with one standard bearer and two companions;
c) all Wehrsportorganisations from the Hannover district;
d) the females section was also ordered to participate with their leaders, as were the Scharnhorst-leaders with the ranks Ortsgruppenführer and upwards.

The badge was manufactured in silvered tombak or metal and consisted of a steel-helmet, which topped a shield with its legend 14.RFST, two crossed horse-heads, the well-known symbol of the aera. Beneath this was the legend Hannover 1933 and in the lowest part an Iron Cross.

The reason that the legend 14.RFST was used instead of Stahlhelmtag, was that the badges already were manufactured and paid for by the Stahlhelm-members, who intended to participate during the congress.
The tombak version was in use by members from the Scharnhorst youth and the Stahlhelm females, while the silvered metal version was worn by all male Stahlhelm-comrades.

The photographs come with the next post.

You must love this one. :001_wub:

Not really a bagde, has two holes in the outer corners for rivets, I believe ? Does anyone have any details to share, please ?

Sergeant 08
15th July 2010, 14:39
Wow! I have never seen this pattern with two holes before!

wilhelm saris
15th July 2010, 14:49
Yes, this indeed is rare, but for me it is easy to explain.
The holes are there for sewing it onto the cap band of the visored cap's left side.
This can only be the explanation. Anyone else does have an idea for another explanation?

Sergeant 08
15th July 2010, 15:01
Yes, this indeed is rare, but for me it is easy to explain.
The holes are there for sewing it onto the cap band of the visored cap's left side.
This can only be the explanation. Anyone else does have an idea for another explanation?

The holes are surely for sewing on. I think it looked better on a cap, than the badges with a pin system on the back.

GastonVrolings
16th July 2010, 04:57
hi,

This is not a badge but a small plaque. It is bigger in size as well. The holes are for two (small) nails to attach it to a wooden plate (plaque) or even a walking stick. If im not mistaken the size is approx. 8,5 cm.


This is a very nice topic, i had been working on something similar, older badges than the 8th RFST might exist.

regards,
Gaston

Sergeant 08
16th July 2010, 06:27
hi,

This is not a badge but a small plaque. It is bigger in size as well. The holes are for two (small) nails to attach it to a wooden plate (plaque) or even a walking stick. If im not mistaken the size is approx. 8,5 cm.


This is a very nice topic, i had been working on something similar, older badges than the 8th RFST might exist.

regards,
Gaston

OK, in that size it is a little bit too large for a cap! :lol:

Maybe for a wooden plate, but I do not think for a walking stick.

wilhelm saris
16th July 2010, 08:20
Gaston,

where did you get your evidence for the size?
Only curious to know! Is it a guess or is it actually mentioned
in some announcement, regulation or price-list.

best regards
wilhelm

wilhelm saris
16th July 2010, 09:00
Post 41:

That would be very interesting if there would be an event-badge for the 7. Reichsfrontsoldatentag, which was held simultaneously at Düsseldorf and Köln at Whit Sunday 1926. This was the actual first Reichsfrontsoldatentag, as all events before were known as Frontsoldatentag.

1.Frontsoldatentag, March 14,1920 at Magdeburg. Was just a meeting as there was the period of prohibition;
2. ibid , January 17, 1921 at Magdeburg (as before);
3. ibid , January 14, 1922 at Magdeburg
4. ibid , January 18, 1923 at Magdeburg, also during a prohibition and for that reason it was known as the Reichsgründungsfeier;
5. Fronsoldatentag, January 19 and 20, 1924 at Magdeburg, simultaneously the Gautag Magdeburg was held;
6. Frontsoldatentag, January 17-18, 1925;

7. first actual Reichsfrontsoldatentag, the first one held outside of Magdeburg (see above);
8. RFST, Berlin. May 8 and 9, 1927;
9. RFST, Hamburg. June 2 and 3, 1928;
10. RFST, München. June 1 and 2, 1929;
11. RFST, Koblenz. Octoer 4 and 5, 1930;
12. RFST, Breslau. May 30 and 31, 1931;
13. RFST, Berlin (second time). September 3 and 4, 1932;
14. RFST, which was the Stahlhelmtag 1934, held at Hannover (see earlier posts).

If there indeed exists an event-badge for 1926 then it surely will have the Dom from Köln positioned and the Rhine-bridge for Düsseldorf. This is only a guess, but advertisements for this meeting showed also these two important landmarks.

Sergeant 08
16th July 2010, 09:32
Btw, I have another question about these event badges.

Who bought the badges? Had the Stahlhelm members to buy the RFST event badges from the organization? Or got the Stahlhelm members the badges for free from the organization?

Sergeant 08
16th July 2010, 09:42
I asked that question, because I read that other organizations (which had not a lot of money, like the Rote Frontkämpferbund for example) sold such event plaques and badges to their members to finance the official events (Reichstreffen).

wilhelm saris
16th July 2010, 11:07
From the 1933 version I know they had to buy them and especially order them. They were intended for participants (that was also the case with the others, as far as I know). That's why they were allowed to wear the badge upon the tunic during the event and later with the headgear. I even remember having seen it in the membership-permission it was noted the person actually attended the event).
That's why the 1933 badge had the indication RFST and was not changed into Stahlhelmtag. They already were delivered and the Bundesleitung did not want the BdF mambers to habe extra costs!

wilhelm saris
16th July 2010, 11:12
post 44 has a typing error. The last RFST was held in 1933 and not 1934

GastonVrolings
16th July 2010, 11:42
Hi,

Wim is correct about the frontsoldatentage and RFST. I should have said that more clearly. Last week i was very lucky to be able to buy a 1925 frontsoldatentag tinnie. It was the first one i ever saw. Ill post a picture once it arrives.

About the little plaque: take a carefull look at the box it is in. You can see the size better then. There were more of these little plaques made by/for the SHB. they were in similar designs as the tinnies and could be attached to a small plaque for displaying or also to other objects like the grill of a car or (when bent) even a walking stick. I've seen pictures of them being attached like this.

best regards,
Gaston

Sergeant 08
16th July 2010, 11:55
I think there would be problem to add the plaque on a walking stick. The material of the plaque looks very massive and it has not a halfround shape. On flat surfaces there should not be such a problem.

wilhelm saris
16th July 2010, 11:58
If they were an item for the grill of a car is doubtfull. They are not mentioned in the Stahlhelm Kraftfahr-Handbuch from 1929, nor the 1930-issue, nor in the Stahlhelm Kraftfahr-Dienstvorschrift from 1933. They were not included in their price-lists ever.

GastonVrolings
16th July 2010, 12:46
I only know what i've seen and i saw this both...


Up until about 20 years ago people used to connect metal shields to their grill, this is a habit that nowadays is almost forgotten (i remember my nieghbour having a shield by saint christoffel and another neighbour having a metal shield that showed some kind of souvenir of a car branch).

Not all these large SHB shields are of the same quality, this oen looks thick, but ones from other years are much tinner and can be bent with some force, they can easily be attached to a stick then, although that was maybe not the purpose they were made for.

Anyway, the one shown is definately not a tinnie but a a larger item.

best regards,
Gaston

wilhelm saris
16th July 2010, 12:55
I know these metal shields. I have seen various from other nazi-organizations (RLB, DLV, DDAC), but they were larger then 8,5 cm only. The sizes were between 12 and 20 cm. The small size would not fit to the grill.

GastonVrolings
19th July 2010, 17:25
Here's a rare one that has not been shown before i think? Hope you like :wink:

Unfortunately damaged and coming from a walking stick, still rare enough to get. I have a 1925 cardboard badge on the way as well and will show when back from holiday next week.

regards,
Gaston

http://www.gastonvrolings.nl/pics/shbberlin.jpg

wilhelm saris
19th July 2010, 18:08
This has nothing to do with the RFST badges, which were allowed to be worn with headgear.

GastonVrolings
19th July 2010, 19:44
Hi Wim,

I found the date already confusing compared to your list on the previous page, but the badge clearly said: Reichsfrontsoldatentag Berlin 1927 (7-8 Mai)

Would this be "just" a daybadge then?


On a side note and completely offtopic i was wondering on another forum if there are more than one Fehrbellin tag badges known? Doens anyone perhaps know this?

regards,
Gaston

Sergeant 08
23rd July 2010, 11:03
Today I saw the item that was posted in #37 in an auction. Sellers wants 240 Euro!!!!! Here is the auction description ;)

"Ehrenplakette d. Stahlhelm-Reichsführerschule Hannover 1933 im orig. Etui, mega-seltene Auszeichnung. Seltene Auszeichnung d. Stahlhelm (1918-1933). Buntmetallplakette v. Hannoveraner Goldschmied „W. Lameyer & Sohn“. Im Originaletui mit feiner Seideneinlage. Vergabe durch den Stahlh.--Landesfhr. Otto Teschner anläßl. des pompösen Reichsfhr.-Treffen d. Stahlhelm (200.000 Teilnehmer) in kleiner Auflage an die teiln. Fhr. der obersten Ebene. Nach diesem Treffen erfolgt die Gleichschaltung u. z.T. gewaltsame Entwaffnung des Stahlhelm durch die SA. Die Auszeichnung ist noch im Stile der parteipol. Unabhängigkeit des Stahlhelm ausgeführt und verzichtet auf das schon typ. u. zeitgen. HK. Äußerst seltener Originalbeleg der Stahlhelm-Org.. Zustand 1. Originalität wird versichert."

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 14:47
Hi,

Last week i was very lucky to be able to buy a 1925 frontsoldatentag tinnie. It was the first one i ever saw. Ill post a picture once it arrives.

best regards,
Gaston

Your mail must be quite slow ?

Is this the same you bought ?

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 14:57
Post 41:
7. first actual Reichsfrontsoldatentag, the first one held outside of Magdeburg (see above);


Found some booklets on the subject being offered by Huesken, thought it nice to show here.

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 14:58
post 41:
9. Rfst, hamburg. June 2 and 3, 1928;


rfst #9

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 14:59
post 41:
10. Rfst, münchen. June 1 and 2, 1929;


rfst #10.

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 15:00
post 41:
11. Rfst, koblenz. Octoer 4 and 5, 1930;


rfst #11.

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 15:01
post 41:
12. Rfst, breslau. May 30 and 31, 1931;


rfst #12.

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 15:02
post 41:
13. Rfst, berlin (second time). September 3 and 4, 1932;


rfst #13.

GastonVrolings
1st August 2010, 15:08
Your mail must be quite slow ?

Is this the same you bought ?

Hi,

no a short holiday came in between :laugh:

I like your 1925 tinnie very much.


this is the one i got:

der-hase-fee
1st August 2010, 16:52
Hi,

no a short holiday came in between :laugh:

I like your 1925 tinnie very much.


this is the one i got:

Gaston, yours says Magdeburg, which I'd presume right, the one in my earlier posting Unter-Weser - any idea ?

GastonVrolings
1st August 2010, 20:14
Hi der-hase-fee,

As i understand it right your tinnie from 1925 is a local tinnie from the area of Unter-Weser, were a SHB day was held. The tinnie is called "frontsoldatentag" as it was just that: a SHB day as there were many others over the years. I havent seen that tinnie and like it very much. We have a long way to go with finding all tinnies that were handed out. Each time new local ones keep showing up. Just great :thumbup1:

Where it gets confusing is with all those names like "frontsoldatentag", "reichsfrontsoldatentag", etc

If we keep Wim Saris very helpfull overview from two pages back at hand we see the RFST days that were held:

1.Frontsoldatentag, March 14,1920 at Magdeburg. Was just a meeting as there was the period of prohibition;
2. ibid , January 17, 1921 at Magdeburg (as before);
3. ibid , January 14, 1922 at Magdeburg
4. ibid , January 18, 1923 at Magdeburg, also during a prohibition and for that reason it was known as the Reichsgründungsfeier;
5. Fronsoldatentag, January 19 and 20, 1924 at Magdeburg, simultaneously the Gautag Magdeburg was held;
6. Frontsoldatentag, January 17-18, 1925;

7. first actual Reichsfrontsoldatentag, the first one held outside of Magdeburg (see above);
8. RFST, Berlin. May 8 and 9, 1927;
9. RFST, Hamburg. June 2 and 3, 1928;
10. RFST, München. June 1 and 2, 1929;
11. RFST, Koblenz. Octoer 4 and 5, 1930;
12. RFST, Breslau. May 30 and 31, 1931;
13. RFST, Berlin (second time). September 3 and 4, 1932;
14. RFST, which was the Stahlhelmtag 1934, held at Hannover (see earlier posts).


What i don't completely understand and hope that Wim can shed some light on is the following:

-1 The 1927 badge i posted on the previous page says Reichsfrontsoldatentag 1927 and is from Berlin 7-8 May. On the above list this is mentioned as RFST 1927 Berlin 8 and 9 May? Now, am i overseeing something or is this actually indeed a 1927 RFST tinnie? Wim?

-2 The paper tinnie from 1925 i posted says "VI frontsoldatentag" 1925, and is from 16,17,18,19 January in Magdeburg. Again this corresponds with the list above.



My humble theory is that the 1925 tinnie is a paper tinnie that could be obtained on the frontsoldatenmeeting 1925 self, by making a small donation for the SHB! (If you look carefully you can make out on the stamp the word "Steuer", this translates i think like something as a small donation?) Im not sure if at later years participants would simply recieve the RFST tinnies for attending the SHB RFST, or had to make a donation and then recieve their tinnies, but clearly in 1925 there was this paper tinnie as at least a commemorative tinnie for the sixth 1925 RFST! Even it was a tinnie that was only allowed to be worn on the frontsoldatentag 1925.



Now i don't mind at this point the official regulations for WEARING the badges (on the day self on the uniform, afterwards on the hat), but want to make a total overview of all available badges of all RFST's. In this light i think my 1925 and 1927 tinnies both fit in the above overview list with dates and events. Again, am i overseeing something or don't think correctly? I'd love to learn more on this and so do perhaps a few others as well. This is a very good topic so far!

best regards,
Gaston

ps: with proof of a 1925 paper tinnie we can now start dreaming of at least also a 1926 badge and perhaps even a 1924...How interesting would that be!

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 14:00
A simple typing error: it should be 7 and 8 Mai in Berlin.

Before the 1927 version they were only allowed for the day of the event. These were practically always from paper and quite cheap. From 1927 first year tunic, after that headgear left side.
See it as a donation, but from a few years I know, one had to buy them before the day of the event. The number of badges was send to the Ortsgruppenführer, who spread them to the ones that paid for them. You could decide not to go, but officially one was then not allowed to wear it with the headgear, as the attending for an event officially should be in the Mitgliedsausweis.

I have no time to further check and take part in this discussion for the coming weeks (months).

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 14:01
I will visit my Stahlhelm-mentor in late September, maybe he has more of the early paper tinnies. If so, I will photograph them and show them.

GastonVrolings
2nd August 2010, 15:16
Hi Wim,

Thanks for clearing that. After your reply on the previous page on the 1927 badge i was a bit confused if the badge was a real RFST badge or just a day tinnie. Now we know it was an official one, but it was only not allowed to be worn at a later date.

After going throught the whole topic again and keeping the allowance to WEAR the badges in mind an other theory sprung to mind: As from 1928 on (9. RFST, Hamburg. June 2 and 3, 1928) badges were allowed to be worn on the headgear, this might explain why the 1927 badges are so often found with holes in them. They often come from walking sticks and this probably can be explained by the same regulations not to wear them on the hat? Maybe this is why they were added to the walking sticks? This way they could still somewhat proudly be worn?

The badges from before 1927 are indeed likely to have been of the paper-kind, of course these were much more fragile and could not be added to other objects.

Im very curious what other badges your friend may have, not only RFST related but any SHB.

Good luck with the work on your new book!

regards,
Gaston

Sergeant 08
2nd August 2010, 17:10
Stahlhelmtag 1933!

Normally I do not collect Stahlhelm badges. But I bought some items yesterday and this badge was included, too.

An event badge made after the 13.RFST in Berlin 1932 and before the 14.RFST (Stahlhelmtag) in Hannover 1933????

I thought the 14.RFST was the first event that was named Stahlhelmtag???

It has a lettering:

Stahlhelmtag am Bodensee 27.-28.5.1933

PS: Wim had posted an interesting photo before. I think it shows the badge on a cap.

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 17:28
No, this one is NOT official. It is not classified as such!
But as usual persons did wear what in fact not was allowed and apparently he (on the photo) does.

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 17:33
Gaston,

wrong thinking: 1927 is official, in fact the first one officially to be allowed to be worn with the headgear (1927 upon the tumic). Many members did not even wear them with the cap, but indeed holes were made and nailed to a cain.

In fact the rule was also: the 1933 version was officially for the tunic, and when the same person had attended the events from 1927 through 1932, he then was allowed to wear all six with the headgear. Those that were not official, officially were not allowed to be worn, but sergeant 08 pointed out with his badge that it was done. As so often!

GastonVrolings
2nd August 2010, 18:44
Hi,

@ Sergeant 08, that is a very nice one and that picture is even better. Even if it was against regulations, that is one great photo. You say you don't collect SHB? If it then ever needs a new home please pm me, i do collect them and try to find as many different ones as possible.


@ Wim, once again im confused now. Were there then more than one 1927 designs? The badge with the wolf two pages back and the smaller one with the Brandenburger Tor on top? Unfortunately i miss some the paperwork to look it up, but i always found the one with the Brandenburger Tor having a strange and very simple design and expected the other one to be the real one?

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 20:59
The photograph Sergeant 08 shows comes from an old publication. It was also used in "Headgear of Hitlers Germany", volume 2 on page 235. The photograph was taken during the Reichsführertagung at Hannover in September 1933. Left is now clear, due to S08. Problem solved. I hadn't seen it before.

The one shown by Gaston in his last post: Brandenburger Tor and Helmet with Berlin 1927 is the official version for the event.

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 21:03
The one with the wolf was not the event-badge allowed to be worn at the tunic and later at the visored cap. It will be an insignia for a cain. It is not mentioned or shown with official stuff. There surely will have been also other tinnies, but the one with the Brandenburger Tor was the official one allowed to be worn in public with the uniform.
I thought I already had mentioned it before in another post!

wilhelm saris
2nd August 2010, 21:13
Gaston: look for the Berlin badge posts 6 and 7.
For wearing most of the official badges see the early posts. The guy Sergeant 08 showed was already earlier shown also in post 14 with the original caption from the headgear-book

GastonVrolings
2nd August 2010, 23:09
Hi Wim,


Yes i read the previous posts before but still found it confusing to see the different badges for the same event. Especially since the one with the wolf looked so much more like a RFST than that simple small stickpin did. It will be a hell of a future job to ever catalog all those SHB tinnies. It also makes one wonder if more tinnies for the same days were handed out, perhaps more paper ones. So far for every question that gets answered a new one comes.

Regards,
Gaston

ps: After looking the Headgear of Hitlers Germany up i saw it was written by you, very nice. Normally im not into headgear, but i think ill go and try to find a copy of this one.

Sergeant 08
3rd August 2010, 10:05
I want to add this item to the thread! ;)

wilhelm saris
3rd August 2010, 12:28
Nice official tinnie for the headgear, Reichsfrontsoldatentag Hamburg June 1928.
By the way: was already posted in post 7.

Sergeant 08
3rd August 2010, 12:32
By the way: was already posted in post 7.

Yes, I know. But this picture has a better quality, I think. :wink:

wilhelm saris
3rd August 2010, 12:42
yes of course. The other in post 7 was shown in volume 2 from the headgear-series and so has a lesser quality.
I would like to know if anyone ever has seen the same badge, but then with a safety-pin instead of a long pin.

GastonVrolings
3rd August 2010, 12:52
No not yet, only as a long stickpin. there is also a very good looking blu-ish postcard witht he same design for sale for a while on ebay, but it is very expensive.

regards,
Gaston

der-hase-fee
5th August 2010, 22:10
Post 41:
8. RFST, Berlin. May 8 and 9, 1927;


Here is a poster I hadn't posted before.

wilhelm saris
6th August 2010, 05:14
was also shown in post 2

der-hase-fee
27th August 2010, 17:22
This one is up for sale on an auction site; please contact me, if interested.

der-hase-fee
19th September 2010, 21:45
This one is being offered by Spencer Victory.

der-hase-fee
20th September 2010, 11:31
Post 41:

That would be very interesting if there would be an event-badge for the 7. Reichsfrontsoldatentag, which was held simultaneously at Düsseldorf and Köln at Whit Sunday 1926. This was the actual first Reichsfrontsoldatentag, as all events before were known as Frontsoldatentag.

1.Frontsoldatentag, March 14,1920 at Magdeburg. Was just a meeting as there was the period of prohibition;
2. ibid , January 17, 1921 at Magdeburg (as before);
3. ibid , January 14, 1922 at Magdeburg
4. ibid , January 18, 1923 at Magdeburg, also during a prohibition and for that reason it was known as the Reichsgründungsfeier;
5. Fronsoldatentag, January 19 and 20, 1924 at Magdeburg, simultaneously the Gautag Magdeburg was held;
6. Frontsoldatentag, January 17-18, 1925;

7. first actual Reichsfrontsoldatentag, the first one held outside of Magdeburg (see above);
8. RFST, Berlin. May 8 and 9, 1927;
9. RFST, Hamburg. June 2 and 3, 1928;
10. RFST, München. June 1 and 2, 1929;
11. RFST, Koblenz. Octoer 4 and 5, 1930;
12. RFST, Breslau. May 30 and 31, 1931;
13. RFST, Berlin (second time). September 3 and 4, 1932;
14. RFST, which was the Stahlhelmtag 1934, held at Hannover (see earlier posts).

If there indeed exists an event-badge for 1926 then it surely will have the Dom from Köln positioned and the Rhine-bridge for Düsseldorf. This is only a guess, but advertisements for this meeting showed also these two important landmarks.

I am sure someone will know: How does the tinnie shown below fit in ? It reads: "Herne 1933 - Kriegsopfer und Frontsoldatentag 1933" !

wilhelm saris
20th September 2010, 11:52
It has the symbol for the NS.Kriegsopfer-Versorgung
and so has nothing to do with Stahlhelm.

der-hase-fee
26th September 2010, 12:27
This badge is being offered in an online auction (PM if interested).

wilhelm saris
29th September 2010, 16:53
With some earlier posts (for example 37-41-51) we discussed the bigger form of insignia with the holes and what their purpose was:
The massive ones are for the Reichskraftfahrstaffel, to be used and put on a car/motorcycle (this was allowed); the ones from tin-sheet with holes are to be used with sticks and cains.

Enclosed some special ones for the Kraftfahrstaffel (cars/motorcycles) from the 2nd Reichsfahrt 1930. They apparently often do exist in two versions of material. The difference in color is not cleared yet. Who knows one day we will find out for 100%, but the reason could be participant and supporter (donation). This is the 95%-guess from my Stahlhelm-mentor.

We had no time to photograph better and more of such material, but next time maybe we are able to photograph all, as there do also exist some RFST badges with minor variations in the design and more from two sorts of material.

GastonVrolings
29th September 2010, 17:19
Hi Wim,


Great information and glad you like the theory as well now :thumbup1:

I like this photo as it shows the bronze variation of the tinnie, much rarer than the silver one.


Thanks for showing.

best regards,
Gaston

benten
5th October 2010, 08:45
Hi Wim,

These badges are lovely for their nice design.
The 2 large and the little bronze ( golden?) one I have never seen before. They must be very rare.

Can some one state that on the badges are symbolicly depicted on the left bank of the river Rhine,
the German army ( sword )left,
The tekst left

My question is: All placed left to show the reoccupation of the leftside of the Rhine bank?

Benten

der-hase-fee
19th October 2010, 23:14
This badge is being offered in an online auction (PM if interested).

Here is another one.

der-hase-fee
27th October 2010, 12:36
Held at Breslau on 30 and 31 of May 1931.
The badge is a silvered stamped eagle, patterned on the design for the Silezian eagle (Schlesischer Adler), but with the head facing to its right. A ribbon decoration has the legend for the day in the abbreviated form XII RFST. Another ribbon in the lower part reads 30.31 Mai Breslau 1931.

Rather than a scan from a book, here a picture of an actual tinnie. Available in auction - PM if interested.

wilhelm saris
27th October 2010, 13:20
This one is quite rare. In 35-40 years this is the fifth I ever have seen.
I was lucky to have one on page 241 from the 2nd volume of my "Headgear of Hitler's Germany". It is an official traditions cap badge. The badge I showed came from the former Stahlhelm-Archiv, where I have seen another one.

Sergeant 08
27th October 2010, 16:46
I think some Stahlhelm collectors will like to see the next photo. It shows members of a "Stahlhelmfahrt" in 1929. Notice the black skull caps! :wink:

wilhelm saris
27th October 2010, 17:32
Here another one from 1929, exactly May 31.
Upon the arm a nice badge with the letter "R".
Tell me for what Gau or specific group this badge was!

Sergeant 08
27th October 2010, 17:46
Here another one from 1929, exactly May 31.
Upon the arm a nice badge with the letter "R".
Tell me for what Gau or specific group this badge was!

It looks similar like the arm badge of the Freikorps Reinhard?

Sergeant 08
27th October 2010, 17:51
Or not ?

wilhelm saris
27th October 2010, 17:59
wrong: the photograph shows a member from Gau I (Gruppe Reinhard) des Stahlhelm from the Landes-Verband Gross-Berlin. He is wearing his uniform according the Anzugsbestimmungen from May 1925.
These guys are always recognizable by the black cap-band (instead of the field-grey cap band). The insignia upon the cap band is the smaller R-version, as to be worn according the regulation beneath the steel-helmet insignia.
In the regulation it is further said: upon the left upper arm the large Reinhard-insignia is to be worn.

The guys (I do include now the full photograph) are waiting for heading to the 10. RFST at Munich.

wilhelm saris
27th October 2010, 18:03
If you look well you see some already do wear the Munich badge. This is possible as they had to pay and purchase them before the start of the event.

Sergeant 08
16th November 2010, 16:47
What is this badge? :confused:

wilhelm saris
16th November 2010, 18:00
In my opinion it is anyway a Führer-Abzeichen for the Stahlhelm (a sort of function-insignia), to be worn with the shoulder-belt. Depending on what colors the belt is piped with:
Bundesführer = orange with gold width for the belt is 4,0 cm;
Bundesamt = crimson with gold (worn by Bundeskanzler, width for the belt is 4,0 cm). It can't be Abteilungsschefs as his belt was 3,0 cm nor Abteilungsleiter as his belt was 2,0 cm);
Landesführung = white with silver (Landesführer width belt is 4,0 cm. Also worn by the deputy);
Landesamt = crimson with silver (leader for the department), the width for his belt is 3 cm and this is obviois not with photo);
Gauführung = white width belt is 4,0 cm, worn by Gauführung.
The insignia is for Landesführung and the version without swastika. Later when the Stahlhelm was nazi the swastika was included.

wilhelm saris
16th November 2010, 18:06
I forgot the images

Sergeant 08
16th November 2010, 18:11
Today I bought a photo of F.Seldte with signature.

That is why I asked.

wilhelm saris
16th November 2010, 18:22
with this photograph he is wearing the version that not has the swastika.

wilhelm saris
19th November 2010, 14:07
Might be of interest:
The Führer-Abzeichen for the Stahlhelm were in first instance the colored pipings along the leather shoulder-belt,as mentioned in the earlier post. The wearing of this or not, as well as the width for the leather should-belt was specificly arranged for functions and titles.

Besides that upon the leather could be pinned on the so-called Bundesstern,
but also the signs of recognition for specific branches:
Jungstahlhelm, the Siegfriedschwert;
Kraftfahrstaffel, the car;
Nachrichtenstaffel, the Blitzen,
Sortabteilungen, the oakleaves.
For a while also the Bundesflagge was used; the chief of staff also had once worn the LV-flag.
To give an idea I do include a very nice photograph from the boss for the Kraftfahrstaffel, the Duke Eduard von Sachsen-Coburg. He does wear a special form for the Kraftfahrstaffel.

Sergeant 08
29th January 2011, 15:22
Who can tell me more about this badge? :confused:

Is it Stahlhelmbund?

der-hase-fee
30th January 2011, 23:26
Hadn't seen this one before. But 1932 Hamburg ?

Sergeant 08
31st January 2011, 08:01
A cap badge!

wilhelm saris
31st January 2011, 08:17
I had a photo of this badge in the chapter about the Stahlhelm in
volume 2 of the headgear-series "Headgear of Hitler's Germany".
The badge is worn there by Gauführer Willi Uhlenhaut from the
Landesverband Braunschweig in 1924. The photo is on page 208.

wilhelm saris
31st January 2011, 08:29
Here is the page with the related text. In the district of Braunschweig its use was quite common until about 1926.

The volume in which this photograph was shown was released in 1992, so
about 18 years ago! Since then it was a known fact!

der-hase-fee
31st January 2011, 20:27
Hi Wim,

I found the date already confusing compared to your list on the previous page, but the badge clearly said: Reichsfrontsoldatentag Berlin 1927 (7-8 Mai)

regards,
Gaston

Event postcard.

der-hase-fee
31st January 2011, 20:28
rfst #12.

Event postcards.

der-hase-fee
31st January 2011, 20:29
rfst #13.

Event postcard.

Sergeant 08
5th February 2011, 17:46
Here is the page with the related text. In the district of Braunschweig its use was quite common until about 1926.

The volume in which this photograph was shown was released in 1992, so
about 18 years ago! Since then it was a known fact!

Thanks for the help! The owner told me from Braunschweig, but he thought it was special badge for a flag bearer.

wilhelm saris
6th February 2011, 14:14
No, it was not a flag-bearer's insignia. This is larger and has another pattern.
If I can find one in my files I will show it. Maybe someone else has one to show. There are various variations.

best regards
wilhelm

wilhelm saris
6th February 2011, 14:25
arm badges Stahlhelm. There are many different patterns.

Sergeant 08
25th February 2011, 14:41
Who can tell me more about these insignia? Was the patch with Jungstahlhelm badge to sew on the sleeve? What is with the collar tab with the "2" and the armband? Stahlhelm insignia? All items came in the same lot.....:wink:

wilhelm saris
25th February 2011, 17:17
I have no files around at this moment, but the pair of collar-patches seems to me: Wehrmann in Aktiver Dienst.
The diamond with sword is unknown too me. Have never seen a photograph where it is being worn. The one with the 2 seems for me for another organization: no Stahlhelm nor Jungstahlhelm.
The one with the white and red stripes in first instance does look like a leading brassard, but officially the stripes should run horizontally and NOT vertically:
Block I is white; Block II is red. A Kameradschaftsführer had to wear a 5 cm wide brassard (1,5-2,0-1,5 cm) The upper and lower field in the Kameradschaftsfarbe (this could be white); the middle field in the Blockfarbe with upon it the number for the Kameradschaft.
In some ways one could say he is a Kameradschaftsführer from Kameradschaft 31. But note the wrong form of stripes (vertical) and a number 31 is quite high. I haven't heard from a 31th Kameradschaft.
I do not know if such a system also was in use with other organizations.

Who knows more? Supply your information!

wilhelm saris
25th February 2011, 17:19
for those that are not familiar: I speak about Jungstahlhelm

Sergeant 08
1st March 2011, 16:36
I have no files around at this moment, but the pair of collar-patches seems to me: Wehrmann in Aktiver Dienst.
The diamond with sword is unknown too me. Have never seen a photograph where it is being worn. The one with the 2 seems for me for another organization: no Stahlhelm nor Jungstahlhelm.
The one with the white and red stripes in first instance does look like a leading brassard, but officially the stripes should run horizontally and NOT vertically:
Block I is white; Block II is red. A Kameradschaftsführer had to wear a 5 cm wide brassard (1,5-2,0-1,5 cm) The upper and lower field in the Kameradschaftsfarbe (this could be white); the middle field in the Blockfarbe with upon it the number for the Kameradschaft.
In some ways one could say he is a Kameradschaftsführer from Kameradschaft 31. But note the wrong form of stripes (vertical) and a number 31 is quite high. I haven't heard from a 31th Kameradschaft.
I do not know if such a system also was in use with other organizations.

Who knows more? Supply your information!

Thanks again for the great help! :thumbup:

Sergeant 08
5th May 2011, 16:45
Again a question to the Stahlhelm experts! ;)

Is it known, how many members (women) were in the "Stahlhelm Frauenbund"?

Sergeant 08
6th May 2011, 22:23
No facts? :confused:

Br. James
7th May 2011, 18:40
Dear Sergeant 08,

I'm no "expert," to be sure, but I will share the only information I have about Stahlhelm Bund membership: By 1933 the Stahlhelm claimed 600,000 members and included a large section for women, called the Stahlhelm-Frauenbund (founded at the same time as the men’s organization), and one for youth, known as Jungstahlhelm (founded in 1924). It ain't much, but it's all I have to offer!

Br. James

Sergeant 08
10th May 2011, 09:46
Dear Sergeant 08,

I'm no "expert," to be sure, but I will share the only information I have about Stahlhelm Bund membership: By 1933 the Stahlhelm claimed 600,000 members and included a large section for women, called the Stahlhelm-Frauenbund (founded at the same time as the men’s organization), and one for youth, known as Jungstahlhelm (founded in 1924). It ain't much, but it's all I have to offer!

Br. James

Thanks for the comment! :thumbup1:

Yes, thats what I found, too. The members of the whole organization. But no informations about the theme, how many members where in the Stahlhelm Frauenbund. I wonder if the items from the Frauenbund are rare things or not? :confused:

Br. James
10th May 2011, 14:37
Dear Sergeant 8,

In my experience I have seen comparatively few available membership badges from the Stahlhelm Frauenbund -- the strikingly beautiful lapis blue-highlighted pieces -- and while one sees fewer of the similar badge issued for male members of the Stahlhelm Bund for civilian wear, the offering price is strikingly different. A few years ago I paid $35 for a man's civilian membership badge and $140 for a Frauenbund member's badge! Now, artifacts from the Stahlhelm Bund and its auxiliaries are becoming of interest to a wider audience; a couple of decades ago anything Stahlhelm-related was a rarity, as I recall.

Br. James

der-hase-fee
8th October 2011, 16:39
Came across this one and thought I'd add it to the thread.

Br. James
8th October 2011, 21:22
Many thanks for sharing this booklet, Andreas. Very nice piece. They didn't know it then, but they were just about at their height!

Br. James