HJ Golden Badge Opinions ?¿

[Jo_Rivett]

If it is True, that only Period Manufacturers were able to produce good quality Enamel and Fire Gilding, then it must also be very easy to say if this badge is Good, Bad, or a "Maybe-could be" badge without seeing the reverse.
What do the Experts say? judging by these 4 High quality pictures.
My opinion, just by looking at these pictures, is that it looks Fine.

[Wim Vangossum]

Ok fake or not a fake; It's definitly not a Hoffstätter.

It also appears to be stone mint which makes it more difficult because I can't see patina of worn fire gilding. The enamel looks perfect, I suppose it's surface is smooth as can be? Or is there the slightest trace of resistence when a delicate sensitive finger goes over it?


But I have to think a bit more... :001_tongue:

Regards, Wim :)

[Jo_Rivett]

The only Possible "debatable" part i can see, is the sunken enamel in the black swastika ? but i do also have period badges that show the same sunken Black enamel in the swastika. see pic. My explanation for this, is quick work, you have to fire the black & white first before you do the red enamel, so maybe this could happen if you have to grind down the black after firing and before you ( multiple) fire the reds, thus causing the already ground black to somehow sink a bit? any any case, sunken black enamel in the swastika is also a very clear on lots of modern fakes as well, so IMHO i always look much harder at any badge that has some sunken enamel, but never automatically class the badge as fake just because of this.

[Wim Vangossum]

It's definetly not an original Paulmann & Crone...

So at this moment I doubt between a good Deumer and fake.

Regards, Wim :)

[Jo_Rivett]

No name Brand, Zweitstück :blushing: & it can be yours for €100.-

[Wim Vangossum]

The sunken black enamel is too much IMO. I know there is genuine period black enamel with sunken parts but never saw it that much on a Golden HJ. So, I would pass on this one. Is it one of those BM fakes? Or a "Deumer with vertical placed maker mark? Or a badge without any mark?

Regards, Wim :)

[Wim Vangossum]

You beat me in speed, Jo!! I was almost there!!!!!!

Regards, Wim :)

[Wim Vangossum]

Interesting quiz. :thumbup1:

Those lines on the reverse are also a very bad sign.


Regards, Wim :)

[Jo_Rivett]

The same dealer has another with no details, but the price is €120.- for this one. Would any collector buy a HJ honor Badge with no markings?

[Wim Vangossum]

I would only do that on Niemann's site. Then you are safe!!!! Now, at least if I was quick enough on the friday updates. :001_rolleyes:

No, serious... I wouldn't think of it. Just like I wouldn't buy an umarked SS zivilabzeichen.

Regards, Wim :)

[stuart]

the first badge is a good fake, it still has bad signs like the sunken black enamel, the lines on the reverse and the lack of any marks are allways dubvious, in saying that it would fool lots of collectors easily especilly when it gets a bit more worn, i like wim would not buy a hj honor badge with no markings on the reverse either, the fakes are getting very good and whos to say if in yrs to come a lot of our collections will be worthless

[Jo_Rivett]

I would only do that on Niemann's site. Then you are safe!!!! Now, at least if I was quick enough on the friday updates. :001_rolleyes:

No, serious... I wouldn't think of it. Just like I wouldn't buy an umarked SS zivilabzeichen.

Regards, Wim :)
Maybe they are Museum made Repros? I saw some sites offer these kind of very good replicas? Even for the GPB there is a site in the US that makes good copies, $600.- for a set Here (http://www.thirdreich.ca/heagles.php)

[Wim Vangossum]

Yeah, the replica's there a very nice. They did a great job with the Deschler but completly failed with the front of the Fuess. For the moment I never had to figure out of a certain Fuess GPB had a front lettering that tried to imitate the real ones. Only the reverses come pretty close.



Regards, Wim :)

[Jo_Rivett]

Yes you are both correct, i dont think anyone would consider a HJ GHB with no markings, maybe the museums do this on purpose? like the GPB museum copies above ONLY available with the Number 1. on the back ? so as NOT to land up on the market as original? In any case, i spoke to a good friend in the US who is an Enamel worker, a member of the Intern. enamel society and does enameling for a living, she told me about the Sunken Enamel the following:

When you mix the Dry enamel glass powder with water (which is one way) and use too much water, this will happen, because the excess water in the black/White will evaporate/Dry out when you multiple fire the reds later on, and the black will sink... on the other hand, when you mix the enamel glass powder with Oil (Which is the other way, and most widely used and practiced during the 20th Century) and if you use too much Oil to make the Enamel Paste, when you multiple fire the Red, the black can actually expand and bubble out..
Here is a picture of the opposite of sunken Black... and although you can see the black enamel was Ground off the swastika, it has bubbled out and run !

This is just her opinion, but she does this for a living (all kinds of enamel work) and she was pretty quick with her answer, so i am guessing she is right. Interesting.

BTW, for those of you who are interested in the Art of Enameling the way it was done during the III Reich, there are two very good Period books HERE (http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=Enamel%20AND%20mediatype%3Atexts) , down loadable for free, discussing early 20th Century Enamel techniques with pictures, techniques etc etc.... Very interesting books.

[stuart]

thats really interesting jo, can you ask her did they use only the oil method in the ww2 period or was water still used then, if it wasnt then anything with a sunken enamel could be considered bad

[Jo_Rivett]

thats really interesting jo, can you ask her did they use only the oil method in the ww2 period or was water still used then, if it wasn't then anything with a sunken enamel could be considered bad
The water and oil method were both used, and still used today. I have Original badges with sunken and bloated enamel. So although it is always something to look at more closely, certainly not a deciding factor of Authenticity though. IMHO it is a sign of Quick and inexperienced work(ers) Saying that, the original badges i have with shoddy enamel work, are all very early examples... or very small badges that were difficult to enamel.
The badge i showed at the start of this thread with Sunken enamel is a Period NSF badge, (now up for sale on the eStand here) and although not pictured in the HH catalog, it is pictured in period sales catalogs, and even mentioned in the NSF announcement magazine from 1932 telling makers to stop making it, as it is not official!

Pictured below is another period Early badge, the black enamel is really sunken on this, but i cant seem to capture it so well with the camera..

[Wim Vangossum]

Took my latest, well worn "B" marked Deumer Golden HJ to my work today. Between the hours I often take a little time to study them, let the lights play on the enamel surface . In this case the red is exremely smooth, the black is also flawless but the white has the slightest trace of sinking. But it's absolutely not visible on this picture.

Regards, Wim :)

Again an interestink link, Jo. :thumbup1:

[Stan]

Here is one I bought last year which has been made into a pendant. The badge is slightly larger than a normal HJ-Golden Honour Badge and appears to be a "frame" which has been filled in and then the gold backing attached.

What do you all think? It received a good review on WAF but you never know. The enamel does not appear to have shrunk.

Stan

[Jo_Rivett]

Hi Stan.
I dont like it. Is the loop attached to the actual HJ badge at the top, or is it attached to the Backing plate only? How do you think the back plate is attached? soldered? Original Marked HJ GHBs have all the details on the reverse in Relief, so in order to solder this plate on the back, someone would have needed to Grind off the RZM logo and details, in order for it to sit flush ... can you see signs of Grinding on the reverse, in between the gaps of the plate?

I cant see the point of the backing plate, unless it comes from a separate piece of jewelery with the loop already attached, that would make sense then to just cut it to fit, & solder it onto the badge, thus not having to directly attach the Loop onto the HJ badge itself.
When you say that it is bigger than a normal HJ badge, how much bigger? Have you tried to look for any markings under the plate, or better said, (of course you cant lift the plate up and look) around the edges and sides, to see if the HJ badge was at any time marked?

The Loop Ring looks like it is marked with a gold stamp? not that this fact adds any punch to the piece IMHO.. I would not buy it, even taking into account that the reviews at waf were positive like you say (i don't know because i don't visit that place)

[Stan]

Hi Joe,

The loop is attached to the backing plate and I suppose the purpose of this backing plate is to give the piece added weight and ensure that it sits flush on the breast without flipping around.

The size is 30,2mm x 17,72mm.

Stan

[stuart]

if you look closely, it looks like there could still be markings under the plate

[Jo_Rivett]

If it is supposed to be a normal HJ GHB with a plate soldered to the back, then what is the casing that is visible from the back? it looks as if it goes around the whole badge.

[Wim Vangossum]

A closer and sharper picture would be nice. If there are traces of the reverse markings you can find the maker based upon the position of these marks in combination with the stippling pattern.

Regards, Wim :)

[Stan]

Well, in the interests of research I decided to remove the backing plate to see the reverse of the badge. In fact this was quite easy to do as I could see a couple of spots of clear glue and it came away quite easily.

As you will see from the photo, there are no markings whatsoever but there is solder where the pin was formerly placed.

Comments welcome.

Stan

[Jo_Rivett]

appears to be a "frame" which has been filled in and then the gold backing attached.

Stan, i am still trying to get my head round this, Do you mean, it started out like a Tinnie, maybe, and then was filled? that would explain the Casing rim i mentioned above.

Well, in the interests of research I decided to remove the backing plate to see the reverse of the badge. In fact this was quite easy to do as I could see a couple of spots of clear glue and it came away quite easily.
As you will see from the photo, there are no markings whatsoever but there is solder where the pin was formerly placed.
Comments welcome.
Stan
WOW..... Thanks for that, but i hope it was`nt on our account... Great point though, stop all debating about "possible" Numbers & Letters that "could" be partially visible and drop the curtain !!!! if it was glued on, then you can always pick the residue off and glue it back on later :thumbup:
Well, what to say ? I don't know how it got a Good review at waf ?
Why, would it be like this? that`s the question. It would most certainly not have been allowed to have be worn in this manner, as there were very clear rules on how a GHB must be worn. And after the war (up until this day) it would not be allowed to have been worn like this.... except maybe in the US or a place that does not ban the swastika, but you would`nt though, noone IMHO would have made a necklace out of a HJ GHB....

Someone has married a Cheap-o GHB copy with a piece of used and altered jewelery IMHO.

[Jo_Rivett]

It would most certainly not have been allowed to have be worn in this manner, as there were very clear rules on how a GHB must be worn.
Here is an excerpt from the NSDAP Organisation Book 1937, regarding how the GHB was to be worn:
Page 461. Translation: The Golden HJ Honor Badge is always to be worn on the Left breast pocket.

[Stan]

Hi Jo,

The HJ Pendant cost me €170 and as it had the back panel glued on I knew I could put it back together after seeing what lay beneath it. You could be right and you could be wrong about it being a copy but one thing is for certain and that is that several original awards were altered for wear. I own a very nice half miniature mothers cross which has a pin attachment which was strictly against the rules and I have also seen GBP's altered so I don't think that it would have been impossible for someone to have altered this piece and worn it around the neck.

On the other hand it could be a fake but who would go to the trouble of having a real gold backing put on and then sell it for such a low price? That also makes no sense to me.

[Jo_Rivett]

Hi Jo,

The HJ Pendant cost me €170 and as it had the back panel glued on I knew I could put it back together after seeing what lay beneath it. You could be right and you could be wrong about it being a copy but one thing is for certain and that is that several original awards were altered for wear. I own a very nice half miniature mothers cross which has a pin attachment which was strictly against the rules and I have also seen GBP's altered so I don't think that it would have been impossible for someone to have altered this piece and worn it around the neck.

On the other hand it could be a fake but who would go to the trouble of having a real gold backing put on and then sell it for such a low price? That also makes no sense to me.

Hi Stan.
Altered Golden Party Badges? you mean with different Pins attached, and in some cases a screw back, or an extra chain affixed to a Safty pin, just "in case" it fell off. Sure, but a Golden Party Badge turned into a Pendant ? No, i dont think so. There were also Clear Rules on How these were to be worn, and making a necklace out of them, would NOT have been allowed.

I am referring to the way in which one was required to Wear these special Honor awards, and not to period repairs, or smaller/Bigger versions.

€170 ? wow ! For an Oversized HJ GHB with no makers details, and a funny plate Glued onto the back? Why would someone do this? Very simple, because they have picked up a Non Name brand copy of a GHB, just the same as the Two pictured in this thread, and then either picked up a cheap old Necklace of sorts from the flea market, or they had it all along.. and decided to marry the two, Hoping that noone would take it off and see that there are no details on the back :D

The Super Glue aspect can automatically Rule our any Jewelers work, or skilled craftsman, as they do not, work with Gold and Glue!!

You have heard opinions from Stuart and Wim, saying that they would NOT buy any HJ GHB with no markings on the back, the same answer i am sure you will get from any HJ collector too.

Think about this one, The first badge i showed at the start of this thread, can be yours for €100.- (PM me for the dealers name and site if you like) Now i know the Dealer, and i know it has been up for 5 months with no interest, so i am sure, that if you offered him €75.- he would say yes! Now, go to any Flea market and pic up an old piece of jewelery and marry the two, you don't even have to send it away to do this, as you can see from yours, all you need is to Whack the old pin off (this can be done by heating up a Soldering iron, and laying it on the top of the pin plate for 1-2 minutes and just ease it off) and invest another €2.- in a tube of Super Glue.
And Hey Presto, you have a Correct size HJ GHB, married with some old Jewelery... and i am sure you can sell it for €170.- too... so how much profit is that for a quick 5 minutes work?
:wink::wink: The big mistake that many collectors make, is one that you are stating here, WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT ???

Fakers are not stupid, and do not want their wares to be instantly recognized as fake. Maybe this was done 10 years ago, or 15 years ago before the internet, or 20 years ago, just for fun by some Neo Nazi crack head living in a trailer in Colorado ?? and maybe they never intended to Fool any one and make money...... and it has somehow found it`s way back onto the market and been sold to you, for €170.- as Real !!

There could be many reasons "Why" this was done. I would not touch this badge of yours and i very much doubt, now that you have taken the plate off, and showed it to be, what it is, anybody else would either. But then again, You paid good money for it, and as you say, people at waf have said it`s fine, so that`s all that matters then. And judging by many posts on many Forums, that is all that collectors are interested in Today, a few Thumbs up from Skallywags that hide behind user names on the internet, and pretend to be Experts on this and that.

[stuart]

i commented on this badge on waf and what i said then i stand by :

looks nice shame you cant see the back to see any m/m or serial numbers

the front does indeed look nice but you could never say 100% on anything without seeing the whole picture thats why at the time i never said it was good or bad just commented on the appearance of the badge,now we can see the back it opens more questions , the lack of any m/m and serial numbers allways put me off, what i would like to see is a side on pic to see better if the side does indeed have a casting mark

[Jo_Rivett]

IF there was no solder residue on the back, then just Maybe...you could say that the whole back was completely ground flat before the plate was professionally Soldered on, But..... :w00t: we know this was not the case, and we also know that the plate was Glued on ! (sorry, i am trying to post diligently and not laugh) The back shows signs of being Cast in a sandpit :w00t: like you can observe with all East European Fakes.

I would still like to know what you mean when you say: appears to be a "frame" which has been filled in and then the gold backing attached.
It certainly looks like a plain shell, that has been filled using some golden-lead-goo. And... Older Fakes of the HJ GHB and the GHB with a wreath are available in a Tinnie form.. i will try and find you a few older pictures of good Fakes of these in Tinnie form. EDIT: PICS BELOW.

Give credit where it`s due though, Thx again for Removing the Glue-job-plate ... it has really helped and cut out plenty of what ifs straight away.

[Stan]

I have taken a good look at the sides of the badge as recommended by Stuart and it is indeed a casting not die-struck so it is unfortunately a fake.

I will return it to the vendor for a refund.

Thanks to everyone for pointing out the obvious.

Stan

[Jo_Rivett]

I will return it to the vendor for a refund.

Stan, i hope you can get your Lolly back. Pity that it has been given the Thumbs up on waf though, if the Seller knows about that thread, he might not refund you, many People swear blind by waf, and are not prepared to listen to anything else. You can see this more and more on Smaller Dealers (no pun intended) sites, where they described their junk as being given "A positive review on WAF"

Fakers have always l♥ved to take rubbish Awards / Badges and glue them onto other old items, to try and turn them into something they are not. Even if you cant Speak German, it is worthwhile checking the Auction platforms, just to keep in touch with the cr4p that is going around... Here is one i found this morning.... THIS, is being sold as 100% Original HJ Honor Prize ?? , for only €70.- .. go figure.

[stuart]

dont see nothing wrong with the hj tin :blink::lol::lol:

[Jo_Rivett]

I found another No name brand for sale. Are these like the No Name Brand SS stickpins? look good, but no informed collector would touch ?

[Frank Booth]

These enamels are very tricky that's why I don't collect them. One thing I don't understand is why someone would go for some of these "oddballs" unless they had numerous examples of "textbook" items and were looking for every possible variant of a badge or pin. I always wonder why when I see an odd looking item that someone has bought without any idea if it is good or not.

[Jo_Rivett]

Maybe because they get it cheap, and think they are making a good deal? You see this on every forum, members ask opinions on items they have already bought, and in some cases, even ask "What it is, that they have bought" !!

[stuart]

jo i think that one could be marked but in very poor condition if you look at the pic i have attached number 1 looks like the circular rzm mark and number 2 looks like the end of the maker number
hard to be sure though

p.s my pics havent helped here dont know why but the poss circular rzm mark is clearer on the pics you posted

[Jo_Rivett]

jo i think that one could be marked but in very poor condition if you look at the pic i have attached number 1 looks like the circular rzm mark and number 2 looks like the end of the maker number
hard to be sure though

p.s my pics havent helped here dont know why but the poss circular rzm mark is clearer on the pics you posted

It looks cast to me, with lots of pitting on the reverse :scared:
Weitze has a $5000.- one up that also has no markings... ► link (https://www.weitze.net/detail/61/Goldenes_HJ_Ehrenezeichen_mit_Eichenlaubrand__1194 61.html) ◄

[stuart]

the oakleeve ones dont have any rzm or mm's but they do normally have a gold content stamped on the back, as for the badge above hard to say if its pitting or just wear on the other pic i wouldnt by it unless i had much better pics and my suspicion of a worn maker mark was correct

[Wim Vangossum]

If that's an rzm mark on the left and traces of a maker mark on the right then it would be the horizontal maker marked Deumer ( horizontal based upon a badge in wearing position). I 'm not very keen on that mark. The only Deumers I trust are the vertical maker marked.

Regards, Wim :)

[stuart]

hi wim

thats what i thought but without the badge in hand or much better pics iwould not touch it unless it was dirt cheap

[Wim Vangossum]

You're right Stu. Such badge has only "studying" value. When there ever comes a time that I go back to local fairs my intention is to buy some of these buggers (only for a fake price of course). Studying them by hand and compare them with originals would be very helpful.

Regards, Wim :)

[Jo_Rivett]

I 'm not very keen on that mark. The only Deumers I trust are the vertical maker marked.

I agree.
dont see nothing wrong with the hj tin :blink::lol::lol:
Thats not a tin, it`s a Rare Honor SS-HJ Matchbox Holder. It`s a known Fact that the HJ were encouraged to Smoke at an early age, Hence Honor Prizes of Matchbox holders. Now THIS, is a HJ Tin :w00t: & before you ask, YES, it was compulsory for every HJ lad to carry BOTH with him at all times !!