120/34 SS Dagger

[sodak222]

Picked up this ss dagger for a very decent price. I am a little worried about the handle. The ss roundel is correct for this RZM dagger. The wood is what bothers me. It is dark but not black. I know some ss daggers had brown handles that were dyed black but after years you could usually see the brown coming through but not on this one! I do see a few very light sand scratches. I would like some opinions as to whether you think the handle is original?
Rod

[Chuck Alan]

According to my references the maker code 120/34 is unknown. This appears to be an early piece. As we all know SS grips are made of a very hard wood and thus suffer greatly through time because of drying out to the point of being very brittle. With the sanding marks being apparent and the lack of any cracks in the handle being observed for an early piece this would send up a red flag to me. This does not necessarily mean the the dagger is bad. It could have been "restored" in the past though. I wish I could help more then that. Bottom line....the sanding marks bring up a big question.

Chuck

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Rod, I own a 120/34 and these daggers, along with many others, do not exhibit a "jet black" finish to the wood. The brown hue is conventional. I don't see any sanding marks in the pics to be honest? I would say it is fine.

Cheers, Ade.

[Wim Vangossum]

I would suggest to take a close look to the wood - crossguard fittings. With those early ones you would expect a perfect fit. Can't see the sanding traces neither.

Regards, Wim :)

[sodak222]

Thanks for the help guys. There are a few chips and small cracks but hard to see! There is a chip on the top that looks like it is ready to fall out! The handle to crossguard to handle is a perfect fit top and bottom. The roundel and eagle are almost perfectly set into the handle. The other thing that bothered me was the scabbard has plated fittings and should have been nickel! Here are a couple of pics of the scabbard. The tip of the blade also has water damage.
Rod

[Swordfish]

I don't really see too many issues with grip fit/spacing between the upper and lower fitting and the grip. I can only see one that stands out and it doesn't strike me as very severe. I circled the spot and noted it as such in the photos below. Perhaps this spots spacing can be attributed to warping caused by age, environment, etc. Age certainly precipitates and contributes to grip shrinkage on many many pieces. Beside that spot, fit looks good.

From what I can see, the piece looks good. However, I must say that in all honesty, '33s and '36s are not my strong areas since I don't collect SS. I've handled and studied my fare share, but ownership is something entirely different. Therefor, I demur to my peers above who most certainly have more experience with SS edged weapons than I do.

On a side note, where are you turning up all the '33s at nice prices? I guess when it rains it pours ;)

[sodak222]

Thanks for the pics Swordfish. I checked the handle and it was not tight! I got this dagger from the same guy as the the boker. He said he never tightens the pommel nut because it tends to chip the grips if they are to tight! Once I moved the handle a bit the fit was near perfect all around. I guess with our economy the way it is there are some good buys out there?
Rod

[Swordfish]

Rod-

There is a piece for sale on GDC right now, being discussed due to the plated fittings on the scabbard. It may be of interest to you since you had brought that up point up. It's a Boker, earlier marked piece with what appears to be a mismatched scabbard. It's causing quite a stir over there, but none-the-less, makes for a read.

I don't collect SS, at all, so my personal experience is limited to examples i've handled, never owned. It's an area I need to brush up on and read up on, however minimally applicable it is to my collecting taste.

Your examples obviosly is a later example than the Boker being discussed over there. You'll need to be logged in there to view the thread since it's in the for sale section.

I will say, the sellers Boker itself is an absolute screamer. What a killer blade and motto burnishing.

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/748105472/m/445106331

[sodak222]

Swordfish. I have read the heated debate on the boker on GDC. I doubt if they will ever come to a 100% conclusion on that piece. You are right about the dagger being a screamer! Wish I could find a better blade for my boker?
Rod

[Swordfish]

It's an interesting debate. A member used the strong phrase "parts dagger" which it undoubtedly is NOT. Though not an SS collector, I can say, in my opinion with absolute certainty the dagger itself is problem free. The member who made the point the dagger is simply "mismatched" I believe hit the nail on the head. The point that a dealer, with stocks of mismatched scabbards and daggers, would certainly marry the dagger with an appopriate scabbard and command full price for the piece. I seriously doubt the dealer would disclose the fact that the dagger had subsequently been married to an appropriate scabbard, although not original to the piece. I think these points were the source of the debate about the piece. SS daggers always seem to draw the most attitude and create more bad feelings amoungst collectors than any other pieces.......perhaps with a '36 selling for $7K has something to do with it:)

I noticed the post has been removed from the for sale section. Perhaps it was moved to the SS Dagger forum, or just totally removed.

Rod, let me know if you find another '33 for $800. Mismatched scabbard or not, i'll take it. Might be time to start collecting SS ;) (only teasing, SS is not my thing)

[sodak222]

Swordfish. The seller had the dagger removed because he got tired of them running it down. I agree with you that it is a mismatched dagger and not a parts dagger. I had the same probel with my Klass army dagger that had the incorrect scabbard but was told when these big companies ran out of parts they sometimes used generic parts? That was enough to satisfy me. The deal with the plated scabbard on the 120 ss dagger is that is has one of the best tightest and crossguard to scabbard fits that I have ever seen on an RZM dagger! I am always looking for ss daggers but I have a feelijg it will be a long time before I run onto anymore $800.00 ones!
Rod

[Chuck Alan]

Hello guys, let me put my two cents in here if I may concerning the dagger/ mismatched scabbard question. It is my belief that the when the dagger manufacturers switched over to the later fittings I doubt that all inventories of scabbard fittings and hilt fittings matched up perfectly inventory wise. Boker made their own hilt fittings, yet they had to at times purchase hilt fittings from other sources on occasion. So when one comes across a Boker with "non Boker" hilt fittings it makes one wonder since Boker hilt fittings are distinctive and identifiable to that maker. I'm just using the hilt as an example here. I say look at the fit of throat and cross guard if it's perfect then there is a chance that the scabbard came with that dagger. Sure it's not a "textbook" piece in that respect. If someone were to put an earlier scabbard on it then it would "look" textbook but it for sure wouldn't be the original scabbard. Who is to say that the original owner didn't purchase a replacement scabbard due to possibly damaging the original? All I'm saying is look at the fit. Does the condition of the scabbard match that of the dagger itself. If so, and you are happy with it great. Absoultly stunning dagger for the price you did very well.

Chuck

[sodak222]

Thanks for the info and compliment Chuck. I doubt if anybody will ever know if this scabbard is original to the dagger but liike I mentioned the fit is near perfect! I have had many rzm sa daggers that the fit was terrible.
Rod

[Swordfish]

That's the beauty of sabers. There is very little latitude for people to swap out parts and scabbards. As perspective, finding a replacement scabbard which will seat a Heer officer saber snugly is a very difficult task. Wehrmacht daggers are so prone to fiddling and parts swapping it's a dangerous area of collecting. Certainly SS/SA pieces have potential for parts swapping, but are less prone than thier Wehrmacht counterparts. Swapping parts on an SS/SA typically leaves a tell tale signs which are much more recognizeable than on items like Heer daggers. That's where Chucks assessment of even wear and age patterns where we'd expect to see them factors in. However, patina and age wear can accumulate over a relatively short period of time, 30 years or so. What's worse, patina is easily faked with very very simple at home accellerants (the method I was tought came from a museum curator and I can tell you, it works quite well and creates very convincing dark, even patterns. I've only applied it to one dagger, which I have no intention of ever selling).

I suspect many of us have a dagger that's either mismatched, or has a specific part, beit a scabbard throat, grip ferrule, etc. which was not original to that dagger. That's just the way it is. Especially when pieces have been circulated around the collecting community for a number of years. That's why when we dig a piece up out of the "woodwork", we collectors become quite excited from the treasure. Undoubtedly, there were pieces assembled by occupational forces with either remaining stock parts, or swapping of parts amoungst the liberators....lest we not forget the firms assembling period pieces during post war Germany to peddle as curious for occupational forces.

Really, it's no suprise newer, younger and less experienced collectors dabble and end up completely disillusioned with the hobby. Truly a minefield.