Armored Vehicle Archaeology [Archive]

MRomanych

22nd July 2008, 00:13

According to the website Hellfire Corner (a World War I website):

“The official ceremony dedicating the uncovering of a First World War tank took place at Flesquieres on the afternoon of Friday 20th November 1998, the 81st anniversary of the Battle of Cambrai.

For many years local villagers speculated that a tank was buried in the area and research by Philippe Gorczynski (the author of a French book about the battle) finally pinpointed its location.

Digging began about a week ago, and a hatch was found about a metre below the surface. M. Gorczynski then entered the vehicle finding it complete and almost intact. Proper excavations followed so that by the 20th November the whole tank was completely uncovered and visible.

Located just on the outskirts of Flesquieres village, it is a Mark IV Female. The guns were not in situ and the tank had taken a direct hit below the driver's compartment. Interior damage was minimal, and both sponsons intact. The rear of the tank was in particular good condition with the crew door still partly open. Even the exhaust was still there!

Speculation had at first pointed to this being 'Demon' of 4th Bn Tank Corps. However, further research appears to indicate it could be D41, which was knocked out by shell fire on 20th November 1917, its commander - 2/Lt R.A.Jones - being killed; he is buried in Flesquieres Hill British Cemetery nearby. However, the location where the tank was found is in the sectors covered by both D and E Bns on 20th November, so it may be some time before we conclusively know the identity of the tank.

A great deal of war material was recovered from the site - mainly of German vintage. It appears that the Germans later used the tank wreck as a dug-out, and given the large number of Ersatz steel shell-cases lying around, there must have been gun-sites here at some point - probably in late 1918.

The tank will be raised, and once renovated will be on display in the village of Flesquieres itself.”

For more info, try this link: http://www.hellfire-corner.demon.co.uk/tank.htm

Photo courtesy of hellfire-corner.com

MRomanych

22nd July 2008, 00:25

Komatsu Times (Quarterly News Magazine for Construction Equipment Users - Volume 3 No 1)

WW-II Trophy tank

14 September 2000, a Komatsu D375A-2 pulled an abandoned tank from its archival tomb under the bottom of a lake near Johvi, Estonia. The Soviet-built T34/76A tank had been resting at the bottom of the lake for 56 years. According to its specifications, it's a 27-tonne machine with a top speed of 53km/h.

From February to September 1944, heavy battles were fought in the narrow, 50 km-wide, Narva front in the northeastern part of Estonia. Over 100,000 men were killed and 300,000 men were wounded there. During battles in the summer of 1944, the tank was captured from the Soviet army and used by the German army. (This is the reason that there are German markings painted on the tank's exterior.) On 19 September 1944, German troops began an organised retreat along the Narva front. It is suspected that the tank was then purposefully driven into the lake, abandoning it when its captors left the area.

At that time, a local boy walking by the lake Kurtna Matasjarv noticed tank tracks leading into the lake, but not coming out anywhere. For two months he saw air bubbles emerging from the lake. This gave him reason to believe that there must be an armoured vehicle at the lake's bottom. A few years ago, he told the story to the leader of the local war history club "Otsing". Together with other club members, Mr Igor Shedunov initiated diving expeditions to the bottom of the lake about a year ago. At the depth of 7 metres they discovered the tank resting under a 3-metre layer of peat.

Enthusiasts from the club, under Mr Shedunov's leadership, decided to pull the tank out. In September 2000 they turned to Mr Aleksander Borovkovthe, manager of the Narva open pit of the stock company AS Eesti Polevkivi, to rent the company's Komatsu D375A-2 bulldozer. Currently used at the pit, the Komatsu dozer was manufactured in 1995, and has 19,000 operating hours without major repairs.

The pulling operation began at 09:00 and was concluded at 15:00, with several technical breaks. The weight of the tank, combined with the travel incline, made a pulling operation that required significant muscle. The D375A-2 handled the operation with power and style. The weight of the fully armed tank was around 30 tons, so the tractive force required to retrieve it was similar. A main requirement for the 68-tonne dozer was to have enough weight to prevent shoe-slip while moving up the hill.

After the tank surfaced, it turned out to be a 'trophy' tank, that had been captured by the German army in the course of the battle at Sinimaed (Blue Hills) about six weeks before it was sunk in the lake. Altogether, 116 shells were found on board. Remarkably, the tank was in good condition, with no rust, and all systems (except the engine) in working condition.

This is a very rare machine, especially considering that it fought both on the Russian and the German sides. Plans are under way to fully restore the tank. It will be displayed at a war history museum, that will be founded at the Gorodenko village on the left bank of the River Narva.

Looking at the two tracked machines, the modern yellow Komatsu dozer is a reminder of how machine technologies have advanced, and the region's prospects of peace and prosperity have brightened."

Perhaps the most famous find in recent years. The story of this T-34 is better than fiction. For more photos and a few videos, try these two sites, or just Google “Russian T-34 Estonia.”
http://www.mil.hiiumaa.ee/2000_09_14_kurtna_T-34-36
http://www.englishrussia.com/?p=299
http://www.vincelewis.net/t34.html

Photos courtesy of englishrussia.com

MRomanych

22nd July 2008, 00:36

Telegraph.co.uk

"Nazi tanks that have lain neglected in Bulgarian fields for decades are to be put up for auction - and one can be yours for as little as £77,000 (€100,000).

The Second World War relics have provided a rudimentary first line of defence against a Nato invasion of the former Eastern Bloc country since the 1950s.

Dug into the ground along the Turkish border, the Panzer tanks, Jagdpanzer tank destroyers and Sturmgeschuetz assault guns have been largely forgotten since the end of the Cold War

But after audacious thieves made away with one of rarest pieces last year, the Bulgarian government decided to launch a recovery programme to save the remaining machines.

Many of the tanks have already been stripped bare by looters, but 22 tanks and guns are to be put up for sale, the Bulgarian defence ministry has announced.

The €100,000 tag is just a starting price, according to Trud, the Bulgarian newspaper. It reports that the best preserved pieces will be offered to museums first before going on general sale.

Around 200 tanks and heavy artillery pieces were given by the Nazis to the Bulgarian regime during the Second World War. After Bulgaria changed sides in 1944 the guns were turned back on the Nazis, helping chase the Germans out of southeastern Europe.

After the war most of the Nazi tanks in Bulgaria were smelted down, but around 40 were buried along the border with Turkey.

In December 2007, Bulgarian authorities arrested two German nationals and a Bulgarian army officer who allegedly stole one of the tanks and attempted to steal a second near the town of Jambul.

Collectors were apparently willing to pay millions of euros for the stolen tank, which was reportedly a personal present from Adolf Hitler to the former Bulgarian queen.

Most of the other pieces that have been dug up are thought to be less valuable, having suffered at the hands of looters."

More information and photos on this well reported event can be found searching the Internet with “tanks Bulgaria."

Photo courtesy of Telegraph.co.uk

MRomanych

22nd July 2008, 00:55

Try these links for information and photographs of German and Russian tanks found in Russia and former Russian states.

T-34: http://www.tankmuseum.ru/restor.html

KV-1: http://www.aroundspb.ru/gallery.php?path=/variety/kv/neva17042002

T-34/85 & JS-1: http://www.geocities.com/military_archeology/tanks.htm

Sturmgeschutz: http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&i=2988&mm=1&vd=1

MRomanych

22nd July 2008, 00:59

Daylife.com

Photo caption: "...A floating crane raises from the Neva River a BT-5 light tank which was found underwater near Kirovsk, 50 km (31 miles) east of St.Petersburg, Russia, June 18, 2007. The light tank which was produced in the Soviet Union in 1933-1935 apparently fell into the river in November 1941 when the Red Army fought there against Nazi Germany's troops besieging Leningrad. The city's name was changed back from Leningrad to St. Petersburg after the 1991 Soviet collapse."

Photo courtesy of daylife.com

MRomanych

22nd July 2008, 01:13

Daily Telegraph

“French bomb disposal experts were called out yesterday to check a World War II U.S. tank discovered buried under a street at Chartres, 90 km southwest of Paris.

A mechanical digger was brought in to clear away the earth around the tank so the experts could ensure the tank posed no danger, a witness said.

The M5 light tank, which was discovered by council workers, was from the 31st Tank Battalion, part of the 1944 D-Day invasion force that recaptured France from the Nazis.

Residents said this particular tank, the first of the invasion force to enter Chartres, had been on reconnaissance when it either ran out of fuel or its tracks broke down.

At the time of France's liberation, it was pushed in a hole and buried.”

Not only is the "discovery" of the tank interesting, but so too are the corrections cited by the 7AD organization web page. http://www.7tharmddiv.org/31d-buriedtank.htm

Photo courtesy of Daily Telegraph

MRomanych

1st August 2008, 15:11

From "Defend America: US Department of Defense News about the War on Terrorism:"

Rare French Tank Being Taken to U.S.
By Staff Sgt. Christina Bhatti / 11th Public Affairs Detachment

KABUL, Afghanistan — Remnants of other countries lay in ruin covering the Afghanistan landscape. Many countries have passed through this land in their efforts of domination, each leaving something behind. Many of the items are being used, while most litter the sides of the road and decorate various junkyards.

There is one particular item of interest for the United States. It is a French Renault FT/17 tank circa WWI. Before tanks were a part of the Army, this tank helped the U.S. in many campaigns in Europe during the war. On loan from the French government, Gen. George Patton, then a captain serving under Gen. John Pershing, was one of the first to learn how to operate this type of tank.

The rusted remnants of two FT/17s lay tattered and disassembled in a junkyard in Kabul and forgotten until armor officer Maj. Robert Redding came across them.

“Being an armor officer, I knew that these tanks were special,” said Redding. After finding them, he did what he thought he should do – he took photos and e-mailed them to the Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor, Fort Knox, Ky. — that was Friday. By Monday he had seven responses.

“They were excited and very interested to bring the tanks back to the states,” he said. The museum previously owned a FT/17 tank, but at the request of the French government, sent it back to France, Redding said.

“It’s a very rare tank,” said French Maj. Thierry Delbarre, project manager. “France is interested in getting and keeping whatever intact equipment that we can.”

But this tank will go back to the U.S. The French have agreed to let the U.S. have this tank. They already have a body of a FT/17, and are more interested in finding an engine, Delbarre said.

Only about 5,000 of these tanks were made and the design and capabilities proved invaluable to many different countries in Europe. Their design boasted the first tank with a full traverse 360-degree rotating turret. It is a light vehicle, which weighs approximately 7,000 pounds. A two-man crew – a driver and a gunner, operate the vehicle. The modern configuration of the tank is still used in tanks today; the driver sits in the front and the engine is in the rear.

There are only four or five of these tanks left in existence, said Redding.

Now that the tanks were found, they have to get to the states. The first step was getting permission from Afghanistan. Redding went to Afghanistan’s Deputy Minister of Defense General Abdul Rashid Dostum. Dostum is also the commander of northern Afghanistan.

“He was more than willing,” said Redding. “He considers this as a gift for what we have done for this country.”

Dostum allowed one of the two tanks to be taken out of Afghanistan. With the help of Delbarre and historians from the 326th Military History Detachment, a reserve unit from Columbus, Ohio, the best tank was chosen.

Plans are still being discussed how the tank will be removed from the junkyard and transported to the States, but for Redding the odessy is almost over.

“I have been working on this for five months,” he said. “It has truly been an odyssey for me and now I am ready to get this tank to (Fort) Knox so others can learn about our history of tanks.”

Images from "Defend America"

MRomanych

8th August 2008, 01:08

Telegraph.co.uk

D-Day Tanks Found on Seabed
By John Bingham
05 Aug 2008

Two Second World War tanks, a lost part of the D-Day landing fleet, have been found on the bottom of the English Channel.

Scuba divers discovered the rusting hulks of two Centaur CS IV tanks, complete with heavy guns, on the seabed eight miles off the West Sussex coast.

After a seven-month investigation, involving more than 80 dives at the site 65ft down and painstaking archive research, Alison Mayor, a diving instructor, has identified them as two vehicles which fell overboard a landing craft capsized on its way to the Normandy beaches on June 6, 1944.

The were intended to have provided covering fire for Royal Marines and Canadian troops as they charged ashore at Juno Beach but wound up on the seabed instead.

Only 80 of the unusual tanks, specifically adapted for use in the D-Day landings, were ever made.

There were thought to be just two surviving Centaur tanks in the world, both placed as war memorials in Normandy - including one at Pegasus Bridge, immortalised in the film The Longest Day.

Experts said they were amazed by how well preserved they are - one of the tanks still fully equipped with its 95mm Howitzer gun, machine guns and tracks intact.

Mrs Mayor, 46, from Havant, Hants, said: "You might expect to find sunken ships or even aircraft but these tanks were just so out of context out there on the seabed.

"It was a complete mystery as to how they got there so I was inspired to take up the challenge and find out why."

Intrigued after seeing the wrecks off Bracklesham Bay, Mrs Mayor and a team of 12 divers from Hampshire-based Southsea Sub-Aqua Club began taking underwater photographs and videos of the tanks to show to tank experts.

With the guidance of historian David Fletcher at The Tank Museum in Bovington, Dorset, they then did further dives in search of specific tell-tale signs to identify the exact model.

They discovered that the tanks were specially adapted for exclusive use by the Royal Marines Armoured Support Group in Operation Overlord.

Mrs Mayor then trawled through the National Archives and discovered that a landing craft carrying two Centaur tanks capsized in bad weather on June 6, 1944 on its way to battle.

All the Royal Marines and crew aboard were rescued but the tanks, along with two armoured bulldozers and a field gun plunged to the sea floor.

Mrs Mayor, a senior commercial officer for the MoD, added: "It was very eerie diving down to the tanks once we knew how they had got there.

"It must have been a terrifying experience when the tanks went overboard and it was a great relief to find out that nobody died.

"But I was really shocked to see what fantastic condition the tanks are still in despite spending all those years underwater.

"One of the tanks still has its Howitzer gun, machine guns and ammunition all in perfect order. It's just a pity that the tanks are upside down."

Photos: SOLENT (courtesy of Mail Online)

RussellM

8th August 2008, 02:04

Very interesting reading here. Particularly the WWI tank, and the associated link gives some answers to its identity and some theories. Thanks for showing these.

Regards
Russ

MRomanych

14th August 2008, 21:02

From the American Armoured Foundation Tank Museum; a story of how their M4A3E8 Sherman was found and recovered:

"This tank was buried for 21 years at Central Islip Psychiatric Center. Now how often would a State Hospital need to use a U.S. Army Tank? Well, C.I. used it almost every day. This W.W.II surplus Army Tank, model M4A3E8 Sherman was given to the hospital just after the war to be used as a bulldozer moving coal piles and railroad cars near their powerhouse. This tank was a special one too. Of the more than 40,000 Shermans built during the war, only 50 were constructed with the M2 plow blade and were used by the Engineer Corps for construction projects during combat. Here is a picture of the tank being lifted out of the ground by a 110 ton crane.

These model Sherman was nicknamed "Easy Eight" and fought its way through mounds of coal, snow and dirt for some 14 years at the hospital. The saga of CI's armoured vehicle did not end when the maintenance department retired it in 1960. When the hospital converted its coal plant to natural gas, the tank was no longer required. It sat for many years having parts stolen off of it and eventually the hospital did not want it any more. What do you do with an unwanted 36 ton tank?

Instead of disposing of their tank in some traditional way, which would have cost the State of New York some money, they simply had their new front loader dig a hole near the powerhouse and bury it under the sod. After the hole was dug and the tank rolled into the hole it was discovered that the hole was not deep enough. To serve as a quick fix the hatch was torch cut off and the tank was filled with earth. Then to hide the tank for what some thought was to be forever, 2 twenty yard trucks of earth were dumped on top.

It was never meant to rise again . . . but then the director of this museum came along. To read more about this unique find click here.

The Sherman is an M4A3E8 "Easy Eight" with a Ford GAA V8 Engine, T23, 76mm turret, H.V.S.S. and one piece nose casting. The blade is an M2 early post war blade, probably installed in the late 1940's or so. The main gun and mantlet were removed from the tank as done with many Sherman dozers so as to make room for combat engineers who were deemed more necessary than the tank having a shooting capability.

Considering that many dozer Shermans even had their turrets removed made this museum feel lucky that it was as complete as it was. The tank was stuck in gear, so it would not roll. It still had its original ole green OD paint after all those years under ground. It was also filled with Long Island dirt and sand. The tank basically remained in its original dug up condition for some 24 more years. It was never planned to be restored as the museum felt that the old girl was historically unique as it was.

But, since the museum has moved off Long Island, the museum directors have toyed with the idea to do a cosmetic restoration to the exterior of the vehicle. And so it has been done. The vehicle was cleaned inside and out of all the Long Island dirt and sand that still invaded the steel beast. The museum sand blasted it, and during the blasting we found the vehicle's serial numbers and also the wonderful original name that was painted on the side. The Sherman has had its teeth put back in the turret with the installation of the correct mantle and cannon. All fenders were repaired along with hatches and lights. And the tracks have been reinstalled on the vehicle. This is as far as the museum will go on the restoration of this vehicle, as it is cost prohibited to go further. Seven thousand dollars in donations are still needed to replace all the deteriorated bogie wheels. All Donations are greatly appreciated for this project.

This vehicle was used this January for the filming of a segment of
"War Stories with Oliver North" called "The Battle of Sicily".
This show should air some Sunday in March at 8PM on Fox Channel.

According to the International Sherman Registry, the A.A.F. Tank Museum Sherman is the only know M2 dozer blade mounted Sherman known in any museum in the world. Many newspaper articles were written about it. There has been T.V. and radio coverage about it, and it even made it on the international wire services reaching all the way to US soldiers that heard about this archeological dig in Europe. This old war horse may not be the oldest excavation of a fully buried tank in the world, but it just may be so for one found in this country. In any event , the Sherman deserves it's place in history as the tank that was once lost, but now found. It may have never been used in combat during W.W.II, but yet, has been places that many Shermans have gone before, and not survived."

Images from A.A.F. Tank Museum
http://www.aaftankmuseum.com/Archive11M4A3E8.htm

ServerAdmin

15th August 2008, 00:05

Great thread! I would love to be there just once when they are pulling out one of these trophies. ;)

Jason

MRomanych

26th August 2008, 01:06

Note: This newspaper article is referring to the British WWI Mark V dug up at Cambrai in 1998 (see the post at the head of this thread)

Mystery of First World War Tank Crew
Belfast Telegraph, 21 July 2008, Matthew McCreary

Relatives of a Co Down man who died in action in World War I are being asked to solve a riddle about one of the conflict’s most historic battles.

Private William Galway, from Church View in Holywood, was a gunner in the Tank Corps. He was killed aged 25 during the Battle of Cambrai in 1917.

Private Galway was a crew member in one of the terrifying new weapons which breached the German Hindenburg Line at a village called Flesquieres, where he is buried in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Cemetery.

Military historians are trying to track down further details about Private Galway, and hope he might still have relatives living in Northern Ireland who may be able to help.

“Ten years ago, one of the 378 fighting tanks which took part in the British attack was recovered from the battlefield, where she had been buried,” said Rob Kirk, a journalist researching the history of the battle.

“D51 — known as ‘Deborah’ — was in remarkably good condition for a machine which had been disabled by shellfire and buried for 80 years.
“She was traced by a local historian, Philippe Gorczynski, who has now installed Deborah as the centrepiece of what he hopes will be a permanent museum to mark the battle.”

But an enduring puzzle about the tank remains over who crewed her on that fateful day. Researchers know it reached the centre of the village before being hit by shells from a German field gun. They know her commander, Second-Lieutenant Frank Gustave Heap, won a Military Cross for leading half the eight-man crew to safety.

Four crew died, and there are four headstones, including one for William Galway, side-by-side in Flesquieres Hill military cemetery. All of them are for Tank Corps men from Deborah’s D Battalion, who were killed on the day Deborah was shelled, November 20.

There are headstones elsewhere in the cemetery for three other tank men from the same battalion killed that day.

“Which four of these men in the cemetery crewed Deborah?” Anyone with information can contact Mr Kirk by emailing rhjkirk@hotmail.com.

MRomanych

28th August 2008, 19:56

From British Sub Aqua Club
http://www.bsac.org/news.216.htm

Divers solve D-Day tanks mystery

A team of divers from Southsea SAC have solved a mystery of how two tanks, two bulldozers and a field gun came to rest on the sea bed eight miles off the South Coast. The historic World War Two armoured vehicles and gun lie jumbled up on the sea bed in Bracklesham Bay, West Sussex, at a depth of 20 metres. But there is no known associated shipwreck nearby.

The Southsea SAC team spent five days in July surveying the site. As a result of their work the divers believe they now have the evidence to prove that the vehicles were lost from a tank landing craft (LCT) and not from a section of Mulberry Harbour as many locals believed.

Underwater photographs and video have allowed experts at The Tank Museum in Bovington to identify the tanks as Centaur CS IVs – the type used exclusively by the Royal Marine Armoured Support Group for Operation Overlord, the Allied invasion of continental Europe that started on 6 June 1944 (D-Day). Their purpose was to arrive first at ‘H-Hour’ on D-Day and use their powerful Howitzer 95mm guns to take out enemy gun positions. Their LCT was specially adapted with ramps so they could fire from the craft as it approached the Normandy beaches.

A total of 80 Centaurs were to be used on D-Day but only a small number actually made it across the English Channel and only two are believed to have survived as war memorials in Normandy.

The bulldozers are also believed to be unusual, in that they were specially armoured Caterpillar bulldozers - one of a series of modifications to different types of war equipment known as ‘Hobart’s Funnies’. This type of armoured bulldozer was used by the British Army 79th Armoured Division and Royal Engineers to clear obstacles from the beaches. Little is known about the modifications made and there are no known surviving bulldozers of this type.

The underwater survey of the wreck site revealed a number of other surprising discoveries. A large ‘Kedge’ anchor, tucked just beneath a tank, two ammunition sleds, two propellers and ammunition were among the many other items found at the site. These items, and much research into the Royal Marine War Diaries, lead to the mystery of the wreck finally being solved.

The historic War Diaries of the 2nd Royal Marine Armoured Support Group, who took part in the D-Day landings at Juno Beach supporting Canadian forces, confirmed that one LCT was forced to turn back half-way across the Channel after engine trouble, and reported two Centaurs as being lost at sea. The weather was very bad during the crossing and a further Naval War Diary entry confirms that the same LCT capsized whilst under tow. All crew and Royal Marine personnel were rescued.

The diving project was led by Alison Mayor of Southsea SAC and had the approval of the Ministry of Defence. The survey team will submit its full report later this year. Teams of 12 divers took detailed measurements, photographs and video of the site to record the location, orientation and condition of the military vehicles. Some divers also conducted a survey of the marine life which has made its home on the wrecks.

“This was a great example of meaningful, purposeful club-based diving,” said Mary Tetley, BSAC’s chief executive. “It’s a great story. It has war, history, drama, human interest, big mechanical stuff, investigation, puzzle-solving and, of course, scuba diving. Lots of it.”

“The mystery of how these awesome World War Two fighting machines ended up on the sea bed in Bracklesham Bay has long puzzled Club members and now it seems we have finally found the answers,” Alison Mayor said. “These wrecks have been dived for many years but it is only when you start looking at the story behind their sinking that you begin to appreciate their true historical significance”.

The project received a grant from the British Sub-Aqua Jubilee Trust and was supported by Silent Planet Ltd, Portland. The Tank Museum at Bovington provided assistance in the identification of the wrecks.

Allan Pilch

29th August 2008, 11:05

Great thread, keep the stories comimg!!

Allan

MRomanych

11th September 2008, 20:38

It seems that several (perhaps four) FT17 tanks were discovered in Afghanistan after the 2001 invasion. Two were found in a junkyard near Kabul and shipped back the US. Another was sited outside of a barracks compound. And yet another was found abandoned elsewhere.

Here are photos from http://www.4600n200e.com/index2.html

Left to Right:
Kabul junkyard FT17 - engine compartment
Kabul junkyard FT17 - hull
FT17 outside of barracks
Abandoned FT17 somewhere in Afghanistan

Don Doering

11th September 2008, 22:30

An excellent thread. Thanks for sharing it and please keep it going.

MRomanych

5th October 2008, 00:44

Perhaps the most exciting WWII tank find of this century - the Russian T-34 recovered from an Estonian Lake - is now on display at a war history museum in the village of Gorodenko on the bank of the Narva River. Perhaps it is ironic. The tank was well-preserved for some 56 years while buried in a peat bog – lost to history. Today it is well-known and is now sitting on a pedestal exposed to the elements.

Photo from: http://www.rense.com/general75/germ2.htm

Adrian Stevenson

5th October 2008, 20:23

Hi Marc, the T34/76 shown on the plinth is thankfully not the same vehicle.

Note the road wheels are of a different pattern and the very distinctive field modified grab handles on the front glasis plate are not present.

I have seen more recent pics of the tank and I will try and find them and post then here. The owners have got a second turret for the tank. They are keen to preserve the original markings found on the turret and have decided to run the tank with a replacement turret. This will also enable them to present the tank in either Soviet or German markings at shows.

Cheers, Ade.

MRomanych

5th October 2008, 23:14

Ade:

Thanks for the correction. I look forward to seeing any photos you have. The story surrounding this tank is unique and worth the the time and effort it takes to follow it.

RaymondG

6th October 2008, 06:04

Fascinating thread :thumbup:

Raymond

Simon Orchard

8th October 2008, 16:49

Atle M

8th October 2008, 17:12

hi guys.

Maybe not so spectakular as a tank :) In a little water just 20 minutes from were i live rest's 2 of SdKfz 8 Schwerer Zugkraftwagen 12t .

these two got their engine blown while transporting the gunturret from the destroyed german battleship "Gneisenau".
I don't know what the plans are for these 2 but i would just love to see them in daylight again! :)

MRomanych

8th October 2008, 22:59

Really? That is fascinating and just goes to show there are probbably lots more WWII relics out there just waiting to be "discovered."

Atle M

9th October 2008, 19:16

i totally agree..this winter i'll continue to do some research and hopefully it will be taken some action to get them up of the water again:)

Javi E

9th October 2008, 20:05

here is another one!!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/2075833/World-War-II-US-D-Day-invasion-tank-unearthed-in-France.html

MRomanych

14th November 2008, 00:13

Panzers Found in Norway
Tor Helge, January 20, 2008

Post World War II the Norwegian Army took advantage of the huge piles of German material and supplies, including PzIIIs and StuGIIIs.

In 1947 the army established what was then known as “Army Light Troops.” These were intended for air-base defense, and their order of battle was to include three PzIIIs and one StuGIII, along with an additional spare of either type. The left-over German PzIIIs were refurbished by Norwegian army depots and the majority of them were Ausf N. How exactly this was implemented is hard to say. I’ve seen pics of PzIIIs in these units with the 5 cm KWK, and some units had only 1 spare StuG, no spare Panzers. Some of the PzIIIs even had the Schurzen while in army service. Four of these light units were established at different air-bases in Norway, but very soon the Marshall aid plan started to come into effect. By approximately 1951-52 the army took delivery of M-24 Chaffees, which replaced the German tanks in service.

Back in 1953 the army built a defensive fort at a hill very close to the airport of Bardufoss. The purpose was to have close range heavy weapons with the range to cover all entrances to the airfield and the airfield itself in case of enemy forces trying to take over the place. So these PzIIIs were half buried in defensive positions, using wooden covers for the turret as protection for weather only. All of the interior parts of the panzers are gone including the engine, transmission and almost everything in the hull. A hole was also cut into the bottom for use with a tunnel that would allow ammo to be hoisted straight up into the tank.

At a later stage in the 1960s these guns were rendered obsolete due to their limited range. New fortified positions in concrete were also built next to the PzIIs. Another opening was taken into the left rear side of the panzers so the ammo-tunnel could be used to bring ammo to the new guns. In this process the whole of the PzIIIs were totally buried These tanks were almost forgotten about until a few years ago. The whole fort was disbanded sometime probably in the 1970s or 1980s so therefore it wasn’t a problem getting the permits to release these PzIIIs.

We have now established with a 100 percent certainty that “our” panzers were indeed used by the norwegian army post World War II. We have interviews with crews of these tanks, and even one man who was part of the team digging them into the ground. We think that these were dug down around 1953.

The area I searched was inside the Air-Force perimeter at Bardufoss, and Bardufoss was one of the 4 places the army’s light troops were at.

I believe very strongly that these PzIIIs belonged to Pz Abt 211, that came from Finland to our area of Norway in the autumn of 1944. On the order of battles they are listed as of May 45 with a 4 PzIIIs with 7,5cm gun. PzAbt211 took delivery of 5 PZIII Ausf N in April-May 1944. This timeframe ties in with pz.gren.div. GD re-arming with heavier panzers post-Kursk, handing in their PZIIIs to overhaul by factory and upgrade to 7.5 cm infantry-support gun.

We have no records of the chassis-numbers with any units after the battle of Kursk. Only the last two we uncovered have the chassis-numbers intact, so we have no history at all on the first tank we uncovered.

Excavation was executed by the Heavy Engineering Bn of the Norwegian Army. The tanks were located inside a military area, on the Bardufoss Air Force Base. anks were stripped internally and dug down in 1953 (probably), for use as close defense at the AFB. ater these were replaced with 40mm Bofors guns, and fully covered with gravel (and concrete on the sides). The concrete is very visible on the last 2 tanks uncovered by the same crew of the same engineering Bn on 9th August 2007.

MRomanych

14th November 2008, 00:19

Delivery of the last 2 PzIII’s to the Troms Forsvarsmuseum 14th August 07 (Troms Defence-museum). Tank with a visible number 1 on turret is an Ausf M. The other Ausf L. Both vehicle serial-numbers have been checked by Henry Blanck, and found to have participated at the battle of Kursk July 43. The “1″ on turret is post-war Norwegian markings. This tank was delivered to PzGrenDiv GrossDeutschland. The other Ausf L was delivered to SS-division Das Reich, who lost it in the Soviet offensive at Kharkov in the winter of ‘43 and later it was recovered during the spring-offensive at Kharkov, repaired and taken in use also by PzGrenDiv GD during battle of Kursk. When removing the concrete, the engine-decks came off.

MRomanych

14th November 2008, 00:22

The uncovering of the last 2 tanks, August 2007. These were inside of a very restricted area, so not many photos were taken.

MRomanych

27th November 2008, 18:23

Arguably, metal detecting is not battlefield archaeology. Nevertheless, this webpage many photos of battlefield finds in the central and eastern Europe.

http://www.detektorweb.cz/

Navigating the site can be daunting, especially if you don't read Czech. I will extract some of the more fascinating posts.

Frogprince

27th November 2008, 18:44

Thanks for the images!!! :thumbup:

While it's sad to see the state of disrepair that many of these relics have fallen into. For me this is one of the more interesting fields of military history. FP

MRomanych

28th November 2008, 12:01

Remnants of a T34/76 recovered in swampy area in Belarus. Probably destroyed as a result of combat action - the turret was penetrated and the damage to the hull and turret are indicative of an internal explosion.

From: http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&i=4281&mm=1&vd=1&PHPSESSID=5011a3f322e1a8a2b0

RaymondG

28th November 2008, 12:18

Thanks for the continued updates to this thread Marc as it is always really interesting to read about these vehicles being discovered.

Raymond

MRomanych

30th November 2008, 16:23

One has to wonder where the top half went. The vehicle does not appear to have suffered an internal explosion, yet the top part of the hull is gone. Furthermore, individual weapons and equipment of the crew were found with the StuG.

For more photos: http://www.detektorweb.cz/index.4me?s=show&i=17062&mm=1&vd=1&PHPSSIDW=40c3b013d1513caa35e02228d1cf8810

Adrian Stevenson

30th November 2008, 17:23

Hi Marc, I can tell you more about this Stug IV.

It was first discovered in 2006. The superstructure was recovered then: see this site although in Polish the pics tell the story.

http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?t=15331

Then in 2008 the hull was finally recovered, more pics here:

http://grzegorzew.pl/galeria/czolg/index.html

Now it is being restored and the hull is cleaned and painted in red oxide primer.

Cheers, Ade.

MRomanych

30th November 2008, 18:12

Thanks for the additional info and the correction. Here are some of the photos from: http://www.dws.org.pl/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=15331&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

MRomanych

3rd January 2009, 13:55

Here is a story about a different type of AFV archaeology - research of photographs and serial numbers to establish a tank's "provenance."

Vilseck tank confirmed as ‘Cobra King’

By Jennifer H. Svan, Stars and Stripes
European edition, Saturday, December 27, 2008
http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=59651

A World War II-era M4 Sherman tank on display at Rose Barracks in Vilseck, Germany has been confirmed to be the “Cobra King,” the first tank to reach besieged American troops defending Bastogne from the Germans’ counterattack during the Battle of the Bulge.

U.S. Army Europe officials announced the discovery Friday in a news release timed to coincide with the Dec. 26, 1944, anniversary of the Company C, 37th Tank Battalion’s famous arrival in Bastogne.

The tank was identified by matching serial and registration numbers, a project worked jointly by historians with U.S. Army Europe and the U.S. Army’s Patton Museum of Cavalry and Armor in Ft. Knox, Ky.

Officially designated as an M4A3E2 Assault Tank, the Sherman “Jumbo” was built in mid-1944 at the Detroit Tank Arsenal. Only 254 of the tanks were built. Because of the short run, and because they were on a built-up hull, all 254 tanks were issued serial numbers in sequential order, according to Army officials.

When U.S. Army registration numbers were assigned to the vehicles, they too were issued in sequential order, allowing historians to confirm a direct match with the two sets of numbers, according to the Army release.

Some photographs of the antiquated tank can be found online.

In what appears to be an old black and white photo from World War II posted on the photo-sharing Web site Flickr, the tank is marked with large letters “First in Bastogne,” under which the smaller words “Cobra King” are legible.

The five men in the photo aren’t identified.

According to the Army’s release, “Cobra King” was under the command of 1st Lt. Charles P. Boggess, commander of Company C, 37th Tank Battalion.

Other crew members were Pvt. Hubert S. Smith, driver; Cpl. Milton Dickerman, gunner; Pvt. Harold Hafner, bow machine gunner; and loader Pvt. James G. Murphy.

“We have not yet determined if any of these men still survive …” Army officials said in the release.

Army historians recognize the “Cobra King” as a significant piece of World War II history for its role in the Battle of the Bugle, the powerful German counterattack in December 1944 in Belgium’s Ardennes forest. In a last-ditch effort, Hitler unsuccessfully tried to divide Allied forces in an attempt to bring about a negotiated peace in Germany’s favor.

In his 1946 narrative “Bastogne: The First Eight Days,” then-Col. S.L.A. Marshall wrote: “ …at 1650 First Lieutenant Charles P. Boggess, commanding officer of Company C, 37th Tank Battalion, drove the first vehicle from the 4th Armored Division to within the lines of the 326th Airborne Engineer Battalion, 101st Division, of the Bastogne forces. This was the beginning. The German encirclement was now finally broken, though some days would pass before the American lines to the south were again firm and several weeks of fighting would ensue before the siege of Bastogne was finally lifted.”

The tank is expected to go on display at the National Museum of the U.S. Army, scheduled to open in 2013 outside of Washington, D.C.

Note: Period photo is from the Internet.

Time Bandit

9th February 2009, 15:23

What a brilliant thread this is - I love reading stuff like this.

Steve R

9th February 2009, 18:00

Very interesting these detailed accounts you give. The then and now aspect of this Forum is superb thank you for sharing.

Steve R

:thumbup1:

dragnet

11th March 2009, 17:17

yes please keep posting, i wait for the next instalment , its facinating stuff. pete.

MRomanych

4th July 2009, 12:38

In the Belgorod region are part of the legendary T-34 tanks and the remains of soldiers

From: bel.ru

Belgorod-historical club search «Fire Arc», on the eastern outskirts of the village Wise, at the site of a former village Generalovka, found the remains of nine of the Soviet Red Army soldiers and a tank T-34. All soldiers reburied, as part of the T-34 will transmit the museum.

The first find at the edge of a reasonable local resident found during the development of land. When digging the soil, he discovered the remains of Red Army soldier. This was immediately reported Regional Emergency Management and the club «Fire Arc», which conducts the search activities in Belgorod and Belgorod region.

When working on-site search engines Club and engineers have found the remains of nine EMERCOM Red Army soldiers, 160 units of explosive devices, as well as large fragments of the T-34. Unfortunately, the names of Soviet soldiers could not be determined. When they were remnants of clothing, CD PPSH, engineer spatula, pot, buttons Red Army, but no post-mortem medallions, or other items to identify the owners, not proved.

At meter depth in the former trenches and crater found frontal armor, caterpillar, engine parts and transmissions T-34. It appears that the tank was blown up from inside, the fragments scattered on the welding seams. Lobova hatch armor to the driver and a jack under the tank's machine gun Degtyarev weighing nearly 4 tons of well-preserved and partially left the layer of paint, reported IA «Bel.Ru» Secretary Club «Fire Arc» Sergei Petrov.

In place of discovery in the height of the village Generalovka July 6, 1943 was bloody battle. At the position of the 73rd Guards Rifle Division, General Kozak and 7 th Guards Army General Shumilova from the reasonable to the east attacked more than 100 tanks divisions Wehrmacht generals von Funk and von Hyunesdorfa.

On their way to death were hardened in the Stalingrad battle Guard 209 th and 214 th Rifles. They supported the Soviet tankmen 27 th Guards Tank Brigade, Colonel Nevzhinskogo. Party suffered heavy losses, the Germans managed to advance to the testimony and Batratskoy Belovo, Generalovka in the day left for them.

Apparently, said Sergei Petrov, a tank exploded belonged to 27-th Guards Tank Brigade, as the battle of the 73rd Guards Rifle Division did not have tanks. At 6 July 1943 in order of 27 th Brigade, there were 35 T-34 tanks. Perhaps the tank was blown up by crew on 6 July, with departure of our troops, not to reach the enemy, or is already padded - the Germans during their retreat after a month.

The real part of the legendary T-34, who died in battle on the outskirts of Belgorod during the Kursk battle, are of great cultural and historical value and a fine display of any museum. Search Engines are planning to transfer part of the T-34 built in Prokhorovka museum of military glory Third Ratne fields in Russia. And all the soldiers reburied to 5 August in the Belgorod region.

Photos from article.

Steve R

4th July 2009, 23:39

Brilliant, I thnk that this is a very fasinating thread and follow what is put on it closely.

There has been a lot of research doen here well done!

:thumbup1:

Steve R

IanC

29th August 2009, 23:25

Thanks for the very informative thread, pictures and text. Please keep them comming! :thumbup1:

MRomanych

30th August 2009, 12:07

I will keep an eye out. But this year seems to be slow in the armored, aircraft, and bunker "archaeology" realm.

MRomanych

24th September 2009, 00:36

US World War II tank dredged from Manila Bay
The Associated Press
09/23/2009

MANILA, Philippines—The Philippine coast guard says the wreckage of a U.S. tank has been dredged from Manila Bay's muddy seafloor more than 60 years after the end of World War II.

Spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Armand Balilo said Wednesday the M4A1 Sherman tank was accidentally discovered Saturday stuck in mud 15 to 20 feet (4.5 to 6 meters) underwater by a dredging company near the mouth of Pasig River.

Balilo says there appears to be no human remains inside the tank. It was discovered without its turret and tracks.

He says a Japanese 105 mm cannon was recovered nearby in July.

Manila was the scene of heavy fighting between U.S. and Japanese forces during the liberation of the Philippines in 1945, and war-era arms and ammunition have been found in the city.

Photo captions (left to right):
- Members of the Philippine Coast Guard look at the wreckage of a U.S. World War II tank that was recently recovered in the muddy waters of Manila Bay, in the Philippines on Wednesday Sept. 23, 2009. Authorities said the tank, which appeared to be an M4 Sherman tank minus its turret, was accidentally discovered underwater by a dredging company near the mouth of the Pasig River.
- A member of the Philippine Coast Guard inspects the wreckage of a U.S. World War II tank that was recently recovered in the muddy waters of Manila Bay, in the Philippines on Wednesday Sept. 23, 2009. Authorities said the tank, which appeared to be an M4 Sherman tank minus its turret, was accidentally discovered underwater by a dredging company near the mouth of the Pasig River.
- Filipino reporters look at the wreckage of a U.S. World War II tank, foreground, that was recently recovered in the muddy waters of Manila Bay, in the Philippines on Wednesday Sept. 23, 2009. Authorities said the tank, which appeared to be an M4 Sherman tank minus its turret, was accidentally discovered underwater by a dredging company near the mouth of the Pasig River.
- A member of the Philippine Coast Guard jumps off the wreckage of a U.S. World War II tank that was recently recovered in the muddy waters of Manila Bay, in the Philippines on Wednesday Sept. 23, 2009. Authorities said the tank, which appeared to be an M4 Sherman tank minus its turret, was accidentally discovered underwater by a dredging company near the mouth of the Pasig River.