Traditional Uniform for Blood Order Holders

[Derek C]

I posted these elsewhere but thought members here might be interested in these shots of the special traditional uniform for holders of the Blood Order. It was introduced in 1937 and seems to have been worn for a couple of years only.
The occasion is the funeral of victims of the assassination attempt on Hitler in Munich in November 1939.
Derek

[BOB COLEMAN]

Derek-
I am quite impressed with these early style uniforms being worn as a tradition. I was never aware of this form being worn at a later date. Years ago, I was watching a German produced documentary. There was a still image shown shortly of a Gauleiter making an address at the Feldherrnhalle. In the background, were a group of men in brown tunics wearing a visor cap with hussar style totenkopf worn at the peak and a cocarde at the band. Do you have any knowledge of this visor cap? My thoughts were it was possibly part of a Stosstruppe uniform

[Derek C]

Bob,
I can't recall seeing the visor cap you mention. Here is a picture of the official tradition uniform for the Stosstrupp. Note the cufftitle.
This shot was taken just prior to the march to the Feldherrnhalle in 1936.
Derek

[Derek C]

You don't see these caps very often as the march was conducted wearing the brown shirt only and this is what most of the press photos show. Here, just prior to the march, you can see Schaub and the gang putting those caps and the overcoats into the limo.
Derek

[BOB COLEMAN]

One of our moderators has one of these caps in his collection. Also note the odd visor cap being worn by the man on the far left of the first image.

[Bob Hritz]

Srosstruppmuetze of Hermann Fobke.

Bob Hritz

[Adrian Stevenson]

This has been a very interesting thread. Thanks for showing the pics Derek. I had never seen or heard of this uniform before.

That cap is an outstanding item Bob. That has got to be truly rare, which is often an over used term in the hobby. Any makers info inside?

Cheers, Ade.

[Bob Hritz]

Here is the interior. In the first photo, you can see the name H. Fobke. In the second photom the logo.

Bob Hritz

[Erich S]

Bob, Bill Dienna owned a Blood order and GPB that once belonged to Fobke. I wonder if this is the same guy?

[Bob Hritz]

Hello Erich,

Yes, this is the same Hermann Fobke. Bill Dienna has period photos of this hat in wear, but has not ever released them for public view.

Bob Hritz

[Erich S]

I thought so Bob. Wow if you could have the BO,GPB and hat in one collection you would have a fantastic grouping to an early member.

[Erich S]

I just want to add that if anyone has Niemann's price guide Fobke's cased BO and GPB are pictured.

[Bob Hritz]

Bill Dienna is a friend of the Fobke family and has many fine items from the former Stosstrupp member. I would be tickled pink to have them, should Bill ever part with the group.

Bob Hritz

[Erich S]

Bob, Bill is a member here so maybe he will give us the history on Fobke along with his fantastic grouping.

[RaymondG]

Well it is something I have not seen before and so many thanks for the education, photographs and an example of the cap.

Excellent:thumbup:

Raymond

[BOB COLEMAN]

An example of the early uniform upon which the tradition uniform was based. The kampfbinde is a very early handmade example

[Bob Hritz]

Oh Bob, how I lust for that set.

Bob Hritz

[Will]

Well, here is the story in a nutshell:

Some years ago I let Detlev Niemann know that I very much wanted to aquire a first pattern Blood Order. Not long after that Detlev contacted me to let me know that he had a cased first pattern BO together with the recipient's large Gold Party Badge. The badge was lacking the pin but, on the other hand, it was superbly engraved with Herman Fobke's name as well, of course, with his party number (in the 2XXX range).

I acquired the set from Detlev. Thereafter I wrote a letter explaining my interest in history and possession of the Blood Order and, using the German telephone book on the internet, I sent the letter to everyone named "Fobke" in Germany. I explained that I was very interested in communicating with a relative of the recipient.There weren't that many "Fobke"s in the directory. Within about a month of acquiring the group from Detlev I had letters arriving in my mailbox. All were extremely courteous. Several said "I am not related, but good luck with your search." One also extended an invitation to me to visit the sender in hisfamily in their lovely home town if I visited Germany. Another wonderful letter was from a young woman of 17 whose family had received on of my letters. She welcomed the opportunity to reply and "practice" her english. I think that her english was better than mine. She told me that she had asked her family members, including one who was working on a family tree. They didn't know of a direct connection to Herman Fobke, but she said that it wasn't a common name, and so they must be related in some way. She even included a copy of the family tree that her relative had developed.

And, I received two letters from two of Fobke's sons. Both confirmed that the items were their father's. One letter also enclosed a photocopy of a photograph, showing Fobke and Hitler together in Landsberg Prison after their convitions for the Putsch. I was invited to correspond with them, but first they asked me to confirm that my interest was purely historical, and that I had NO sympathies of admiration for the Third Reich, which I did.

I'll add some more of this story later, if anyone is interested.

One point that I will add from a collecting perspective:

Some of you may have seen the photo of the tunic of a senior SA officer that is in the collection on Ulric Woodhams, "Ulric of England". That tunic is for a member of the SA Staff for Gruppe Pommern. It has a Blood Order ribbon on the pocket and a Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler cuff title. That tunic is named to Hermann Fobke. One of Fobke's sone told me that after American troops came into their apartment in 1945, things started going out the door. I presume that this included this tunic. The tunic was originally purchased by an American collector from the veteran some years ago. It then went to Steve Wolfe, who offered it at a MAX show some years back, where Ulric purchased it. Steve told me that when the tunic was originally acquired from the veteran there was an unnumbered Blood Order on the pocket. This would seem to indicate that BO recipients could obtain unnumbered duplicates so that they didn't have to keep switching the BO from one uniform to another.

[BOB COLEMAN]

will-
Please proceed!

[Will]

Well, O.K., here's what I'll call part II of the story:

While I corresponded with one of Fobke's sons (the other son became ill), I also researched Herman Fobke. He is prominently mentioned in the two-volume biography of Hitler bi Ian Kershaw. While in Landsberg Fobke was designated by Hitler as his liason to the North German branch of the Party under Strasser.

At one point Fobke wrote to Hitler to praise the abilities of a young speaker who Fobke had heard give a public speech. The speaker's name was Josef Goebels.

Fobke was a WW I veteran who had been wounded by gas and taken prisoner by the French. He joined the Party in 1919 actually, I think, shortly before Hitler joined.

He was a student in Munich at the time of the Putsch and he became a journalist by profession. In Landsberg prison he published an "underground" satirical newspaper that even the guards looked forward to reading.

After Landsberg Hitler presented to Fobke an inscribed first edition of Mein Kampf. It was dedicated to Fobke as a comrade who had shared Hiler's struggle and imprisonment with him in Fortress Landsberg. Apparently this book was confiscated from the family by someone. Evidently Frau Fobke tried to get it back, without success. Among the family items that I would see was a newspaper clipping from a german newspaper in the 1960's stating that this exact first edition had been sold at an auction in New York City. I am sure that the sale was by the late autograph dealer Charles Hamilton, because in the first of the two books that he wrote on the signatures of Third Reich personalities there is a photo of the dedication page of this copy of Mein Kampf given to Fobke. I tried in various ways to track down this presentation copy of Fobke's but I was not successful. I even contacted Roger Bender, the publisher of Hamilton's books. Roger very kindly replied that the location of the book was unknown to him, and he told me that many of the photos in Hamilton's books were actually photocopies of items that Hamilton had once owned and later sold at his auctions.

Detlev secured for me a copy of a german book called "Hitler's Political Generals". This contains short biographical summaries of all of the Gauleiters. When Hitler reorganized the Party in 1927 he named Fobke as one of the first Gauleiters. The book stated that in 1938 Fobke was stripped of his Party rank by the Supreme Party Court. The reason is not given. I reviewed the records of the Supreme Party Court in the National Archives, but I could find no file for a case involving Fobke. Similiarly, there was no copy of a Party file for Fobke. The archives did, however, have a copy of his SA file, which was helpful in my research.

In the meantime, Herr Fobke, the son, and I continued our correspondence. In fact, we played chess by mail. He often sent me photographs of his father. Some were photocopies when he had but one original. Other photos were original. He also sent me a copy of his father's WW I soldbuch that had him designated as a Pioneer as I recall.

I want to say here that Detlev gave me absolutely invaluable help with my correspondence with Herr Fobke and with my research, and the most that he would ever accept from me in return was a "Thank you very much".

When the second world war arrived, Fobke went into the service of the Propaganda Ministry of his old friend Goebels. He went to the eastern front in the Heer uniform of a civilian admin specialist in service with the army. One photo given to me by Herr Fobke showed his father wearing the tunic of an enlisted soldier, but with the shoulder boards of an administrative officer. Clearly visible in the photo on the tunic were the Blood Order ribbon on the pocket and the Gold Party Badge.

I naturally also inquired of Herr Fobke as to whether any other medals or mementos remained with the family. He said that he had a few things and that "You'll see them when you come visit". Well, I was very flattered by the invitation and made plans to visit with Herr Fobke and his wife in Germany. That would lead to quite a few surprises. Questions that were answered by this visit included:
-Why the SS would come to wear black stripes on their party armbands.
-What did Hermann Fobke sound like?
- Fobke's fate, as well as the tragedy that befell the family in the fate of their oldest son.

More to come later.

[Napalm]

Wow!, Can't wait for part three :thumbup1:

[Adrian Stevenson]

This is great! I cannot wait for the next installment!

Cheers, Ade.

[RussellM]

This is a fascinating thread, with wonderful items and excellent information. The story is very captivating Will, so very much look forward to reading more. Many thanks for relaying this to us all!

Regards
Russ

[Erich S]

Thanks Bill for sharing this fantastic story and I'm looking forward to reading the rest of it. Do you still own the Fobke grouping? Best, Erich

[RaymondG]

Hi Bill

Now that is a great story and I am eagerly awaiting Part III of the story

Raymond

[Will]

Well, I'm glad that you guys find this interesting. So here's another installment of the story.

I prepared to visit Herr Fobke. I made copies of all of my research with the thought that he might appreciate the information. I knew from my copy of Fobke's SA file that Herr Fobke had been the youngest of four sons. I also knew from that file that he had celebrated a birthday recently. I wanted to give him a birthday present, which would express as well my deep appreciation for everything that he had done for me. He had not even allowed me to give him something towards his postage costs.

I searched for and found what I thought was a gift that I wanted to give to him, a superb chess set. It had been made by the Franklin Mint some years earlier. The chess board squares were blue and gray and the board had on it a map of Gettysburg. All of the pieces reflected the American Civil War. I took this with me to Germany.

In my mind I had been considering a question that I had not raised in our correspondence: How did the Blood Order and Gold Party Badge come to be on the collectors' market? I now knew that, at the very least, Hermann Fobke's SA tunic had been taken from the family home by an American soldier. I decided that I needed to raise the question with Herr Fobke when we met. I also decided that if they had been taken as souvenirs by a soldier, and if Herr Fobke wanted these items back in the family, I would send them to him upon my return to the States. I certainly was not going to risk carrying them to Germany where they might have been lost in luggage or confiscated by Customs. Obviously I was saddened by the possibility of relinquishing such significant pieces of history, but I was certain that, at least for me personally, that was what I thought would be the right thing to do.

I arrived at the Fobke home on an overcast winter day. Herr and Frau Fobke met me at the door and gave me a truly warm welcome. Also present was Gunther, a friiend of Herr Fobke's from his chess club, a man who taught english and was absolutely fluent in the language. Herr Fobke did not speak english. His wife spoke english well, I thought, but she was not so certain of her command of the language to want to serve as a translator, something that we needed since my german language skills are minimal.

I presented Herr Fobke with the gift-wrapped chess set together with my warmest birthday wishes and my thanks for his friendship. He unwrapped the chess set and seemed visibly moved by it. He immediately set it up, and photos were taken of he and I sitting around it. I later received an email from Gunther that at the next meeting of the chess club Herr Fobke had set up the Franklin Mint chess set as a display for the other members, which was very gratifying to hear.

We then all sat down around a table in the Fobke's lovely and meticulous home.
Herr Fobke then told me of his father.

Hermann Fobke was indeed an "Alte Kampfer", one of the very earliest members of the Party. Herr Fobke knew his father very little from a personal standpoint, for Hermann Fobke died in the Ukraine when Herr Fobke was still a young boy. He in no way admired his father's role as an early Party member and an associate of Hitler. But he recognized that his father had been a part of history, and I think that he thought well of my interest in history. He told me things such as this:

He had no knowledge as to why (if the information in the book "Hitler's Political Generals was correct) action was taken against his father by the high Party court. He said that his mother told him that his father, by the late 1930's, was using his position to get passports for jews to enable them to leave Germany. Perhaps, he thought, that had something to do with it.

His father once arranged a personal meeting with Hitler for his own sister, Herr Fobke's aunt. His aunt later repeatedly remarked upon Hitler's blue eyes.

Every year during the Reich Party Days there was time set aside for Hitler to meet privately with the Stosstrupp veterans. On one such occasion Hitler entered the restaurant where the meeting was being held and saw Hermann Fobke sitting at a table. Hitler smiled and called out "What's going on? Fobke is drinking water!" Apparently Hermann Fobke's reputation was that of a man who enjoyed his beer. In reply to Hitler's joking remark Fobke immediately stood and called out "Waiter, bring me a beer!".

Hermann Fobke was in attendance when a bomb went off after Hitler had addressed the SA veterans at the Burgerbraukeller, but he was unharmed.

On the Russian front Fobke personally witnessed excesses being perpetrated, which left him shocked. When he was granted leave, Fobke stopped in Berlin on the train journey home and went to the Propaganda Ministry to see Goebels. He wanted to personally tell Goebels what he had seen on the eastern front. But he was never able to get in to see the Propaganda Minister in the time that he had, before he needed to continue his leave home.

Then Herr Fobke told me of a record that his father had made on the eastern front before a Christmas during the war. At a mobile propaganda ministry recording studio Fobke had recorded Christmas greeting to his family, and he read a poem that he had written for his sons. He then sent this record home to his family. Herr Fobke then went to his music collection and removed that very album from the shelf. He placed it on his stereo and within a few moments I was listening to the Putsch Stosstrupp veteran sending Christmas wishes to his family. As the record played, Gunther translated for me. When it ended, Herr Fobke held out a cassette tape that he had made of the record for me. and Gunther gave me a transcription of the record, in both german and english. Gunther's command of the english language was so exceptional that he was able to translate Fobke's poem into english in a form that still rhymed, and lost not a single particle of the original meaning.

Then, as we continued to sit at the table, still talking, Herr Fobke picked up a small box and slid it across the table to me. I removed the lid. On top was a medal bar.

More to come....

[RaymondG]

What a wonderful, heartwarming and fascinating story, Bill.

It is getting like the anticipation of waiting for the next episode of '24'!.

Pray tell us more

Raymond

[RussellM]

Yes, this is a great story! Wonderful gesture with the chess set!

Regards
Russ

[Erich S]

I feel like I'm reading a novel and please keep it coming!

[Will]

O.K., guys, some more of the story...

The medal bar on top of the box was, of course, Hermann Fobke's. It was a small bar, with the standard service medals for service in the First World War. But it was in immaculate condition. There were several ribbon bars for the same medals, showing various stages of use. Also in the box was a WW I wound badge in black. Beyond this, all of the award documents for the medals were present. Additionally, the box contained a Mother's Cross in silver, with a miniature, and the award document, both of which had belonged to Herr Fobke's mother. Also present were two standard Party badges, both of which had belonged to his mother as well. There was also a Christmas card that had been sent to Fobke by Josef Goebels, an Ostfront medal, a bullion army officer's cap wreath, and other small items. Additionally, there were photos of the military funeral that was given to Fobke in Russia upon his death in 1943. Finally, there were memorial cards from his memorial service in Germany after his death. The photo on the card was religious in nature, and not a photo of Fobke. However, it was very prominently stated on the card that he was a "Blutordentrager".

As we discussed these medals, I finally raised the question of how the Blood Order and Gold Party badge had found their way to a collector. Herr Fobke told me that all of his father's remaining memorabilia had remained with his mother. When she passed away, one of his brothers continued to live in that home, where the memorabilia was kept. After my letter arrived, Herr Fobke spoke with that brother, who informed him that, over a period of time, he had sold off most all of the items relating to Hermann Fobke except for what was now in front of me. After his brother went into a nursing home, Herr Fobke found a list of the items that his brother had sold. These included Fobke's NSDAP membership book and the award document for the Gold Party badge. So these items are still out there someplace. I recollect a few other pieces, but nothing dramatic. I blieve that these were the only two items that would be identifiable to Fobke today if they were to appear on a dealer's website.

Interestingly (to me, at least), none of the documentation or family pieces that I had access to gave any indication that Fobke had received a number of medals or decorations to which he was, or might have been, entitled. For example, I had the thought that Fobke would have been entitled to all three of the NSDAP Long Service medals, yet nothing indicated that he received them. The photo of him in WW II on the eastern front showed him wearing only the small ribbon bar such as the ones in the box. And then I thought that maybe he was one of those fellows who wore what he thought was important. On any occasion in which he was in a uniform, he was entitled to wear: The Gold Party Badge; the Blood Order; and the cufftitle of the "Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler". Maybe he thought that those were all of the credentials that he needed, that "Long Service" medals or Gau Badges would have been redundant or superfluous.

I was very sorry to learn that the Fobke items had been scattered about, but I admit that, at the same time, I was relieved that they had come onto the market through the decision of someone in the family (though apparently without consulting his brothers).

I must have examined all of these medals and documents and pins for at least an hour while we all talked. Finally, I re-packed the items carefully in the box and moved it to the center of the table. Herr Fobke began to shake his head. He then was speaking. I understood the "Nein, nein, nein" that he began with, but I had to turn to Guenther for a translation. "He wants you to have them, Bill. He thinks that your interest in his father is even greater than his own, and he wants you to take them with you."

Well, I was really taken aback. Somehow "Vielen dank" seemed pretty inadequate. To say that I was grateful was an understatement. But Herr Fobke reached out again to make sure that he pushed the box right up to my hand.
And so my Sammler Fobke had significantly expanded.

More than that, though, I was extremely touched by something that Frau Fobke told me later. She said that when it ultimately became necessary for Herr Fobke's brother to go into a health care facility, Herr Fobke said to her "We must go over to his house. If there is anything still there that was Father's, we must get it for Bill." That was incredibly moving to me.

But there was more to come. Something, perhaps, far more important from the standpoint of history than the medals and award documents....

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi Bill, this is such a great story :thumbup:

Cheers, Ade.

[RussellM]

Totally fascinating and very well written! Can't wait to read more, this is sooo good!

Regards
Russ

[Erich S]

I think that when the story is concluded this Thread should be pinned.

[Erich S]

Bill, do you have any photos of the BO etc that you can share with us?

[Will]

Erich...

If you have a copy of Detlev Niemann's reference book and price guide (second edition or later), both the Blood Order and Gold Party Badge are pictured in the book.

Also, to everyone, I'm a two-finger typist, so I'm slow and make a number of errors, for which I apologize. I do try to catch them on proofreading, but I obviously miss some. That is also why I didn't post the whole story, or most of it, at one time; It takes so long for me to type the posts that you've seen that to try and do longer installments would have me at the keyboard for about 36 hours!

More of the story to come....

[Will]

One other quick note:

I have tried my letter-writing effort four times with German militaria. Out of those four times, only once was I unsuccessful in reaching someone with a connection to the militaria (so, a 75% success rate!). Aside from my contacts with Herr Fobke, I also found the original owner of an HJ uniform that I had acquired. I also once owned a Wehrpass for a member of the Postschutz, and I located his daughter. ALL of these experiences were very informative and restored a personal history to the item.

[Will]

Okay, before returning to our main story, here is a bit of a sidebar:

Shortly after I made contact with Herr Fobke I learned that Ulric Woodhams had in his collection Fobke's SA tunic. It was Ulric who then told me that one of our own moderators, Bob Hritz, owned Fobke's Stosstruppe traditions uniform cap. This all really stunned me, but I thought that it was great at the same time.

During my the period of correspondence and visits with Herr Fobke I maintained a correspondence as well with Ulric, who I found to be most friendly. He told me something that I found very interesting:

Some years before, he had purchased a group of documents and photos. He bought the group because it contained one document in particular that he wanted for his collection. This was a special certificate given to individuals who had made a monetary donation to assist in remodeling the Brown House in Munich as the Party headquarters. And who was the man whose name was on that certificate?
Hermann Fobke.

Apparently this group of documents and photos were all related to the Fobke family, and must have been a part of the material sold by Herr Fobke's brother over the years. I often wondered if it originally contained the award document for the Gold Party Badge as well before Ulric acquired it?
Particularly interesting to me was Ulric's statement that he acquired Fobke's SA tunic some time later, and he had completely forgotten about the name on the donation certificate. In other words, he owned Fobke's tunic for some time before he realized the connection with the tunic, and that they all related to the same man.
Must be nice to have such a collection!

When Ulric and I first began corresponding, I of course good naturedly suggested that he allow me to purchase Fobke's tunic. Ulric, on the other hand, and with equal good humour, suggested that I permit him to acquire the medals. We both then confirmed that these items were regarded by us as the centerpieces of our respective collections. We then agreed that someday we would meet at a show, perhaps the MAX show or the Show of Shows. Ulric would bring the tunic for display. I would bring the medals, and we would place the medals back on the tunic for the purpose of reuniting them, if only briefly, for the sake of history and a few photos! I'm sure that we each were also thinking that that would be the moment for us to say to the other "They belong together! Wouldn't you like to let me purchase it/them?"

Similiarly, I knew that Fobke's cap was a prized item within Bob's remarkable collection. I was very, very pleased when some of the photos that Herr Fobke showed to me depicted Fobke wearing Bob's cap, and also Ulric's SA tunic. I was able to provide copies of these photos to each of them. Ulric remarked that he had looked for years for a photo of Fobke in the tunic, without success.

Finally, for this little side story, before my second trip to Germany to meet with Herr Fobke, Ulric sent me a superb 8x10 color photograph of the Fobke tunic. When I met with the Fobkes I gave this photograph to Herr Fobke. Although he had said in our first visit that my interest in his father exceeded his own, he was very visibly moved to receive that photo. We were meeting initially at a restaurant, and after looking at the photo for several long moments, he stood up, came around the table, and extended his hand to me by way of thanks. Herr Fobke was a very, very kind and warm man in my opinion, but he observed what I think of as the proper german formalities. For example, early in our correspondence I asked him to please simply call me "Bill". In response he thanked me for that gesture and said that he would do so, but that he felt more comfortable with receivng the traditional german address. I was quite happy to observe this practice, and so he and his wife were always "Herr Fobke" and "Frau Fobke". His friend, however, who assited us with translations, was perfectly happy to have me call him "Guenther". But my point is that Herr Fobke's action upon receiving the photo of the tunic, his gesture of standing up and coming around the table to shake my hand, told me a great deal of how he felt upon receiving this picture.

More to come, my friends....

[Marcus]

An interesting thread indeed. I am looking forward to more of the story. Can it get any better?

Though it is so cliche, it truly is a small world. I've been collecting now for 8 years and I too have experinced strange coincidences as well, but nothing on this scale of historical importance. Thank you so very much Bill, for taking the time to tell this fasinating story and, as I am not a typist myself, know that it is not an easy task.

Best Wishes,

Marcus

[RaymondG]

A tremendous story, Bill and please keep it coming as it is enthralling. :thumbup:

Raymond

[Will]

Can it get any better?

Well, in my own humble opinion...Yes. The most remarkable aspect of this story as far as I am concerned is yet to be told.

Back on Monday, Gents.

[BOB COLEMAN]

well, in my own humble opinion...yes. The most remarkable aspect of this story as far as i am concerned is yet to be told.

Back on monday, gents.

will-
that is what is called, "a teaser.";)
thank you for sharing all of your knowledge of this all but forgotten stosstruppe member.

[Erich]

I just found this thread, and dropped everything else to read it. Why doesn't someone tell me about these threads?!!?
Bill, even though you had related some of the Fobke story to me, the details are fascinating, as well as the fact that your narrative is superb. This would be a great article for a journal like the Military Advisor. If you ever enlist the other 8 fingers for your typing, you should be able to type at least 80% faster!
And it's Monday--let's have another chapter!
Erich

[Will]

Well, o.k., here is some more, guys....

As I sat with Herr Fobke in his home, going over family papers and photographs, he produced several pictures and postcards. Each of the photographs showed a young man who was movie-star handsome, about 17 years old. This was Herr Fobke's oldest brother Franz. In at least one of the photos he was clearly wearing the uniform of a student at one of the Adolf Hitler schools. He had been selected, no doubt, because of the prominent role that his father held as an old fighter and long-time associate of Hitler and Goebels. In fact, Herr Fobke showed to me (and gave me) a family tree that was prepared in the 1930's that traced the lineage of Hermann Fobke and his wife back to the 1600's. I believe that this was done, at least in part, as a part of Franz's application process to the Adolf Hitler school.

Upon completion of his studies there, sometime I believe in 1944, Franz was then assigned to the RAD, or Labor Corps. The postcards that I viewed were several that had been sent home to the family by Franz. Herr Fobke pointed out that the postcard with the earliest date was signed by Franz with "Heil Hitler". However, as time went on, that closing disappeared from the cards. Herr Fobke said that Franz and his unit were working in different areas of Germany repairing bomb damage and that, as Franz saw more and more of what was happening in the country, he became disinclined to use the "Heil Hitler" closing.

Then.....

Herr Fobke told me that sometime in March of 1945, Franz simply dissapeared. There were no more postcards, no more communications of any kind. The government, such as it was at that point in time, could provide no information. The war came to an end and Franz never returned, though Herr Fobke told me that his mother always remained hopeful that he would one day walk through the door. She passed away before any news of Franz came to light.
But it did come to light.

I believe that it was in the 1980's. A man in a small town came forward with a story. In 1945 a group of young men from the RAD were working in and around the town. One day an SS squad came upon three of them outside of town. The young men were apparently wearing only pieces of uniforms. The SS did not find their papers in order. The conclusion was drawn that these young men were deserters. And so each of them was summarily executed, shot once in the back of the neck. One of them was Franz.

And so Franz Fobke, whose father was a veteran of World War I, one of the earliest members of the Nazi Party, a member of the Stosstruppe Adolf Hitler, a veteran of the Beer Hall Pursch, one of the first Gauleiters of Germany, a companion of Hitler's in Landsberg Prison, a recipient of the Blood Order and the Gold Party Badge, Franz Fobke who was himself a graduate of the Adolf Hitler School, was murdered by the SS and left on the side of the road a few weeks before the war ended.

The man said that a few locals from the town buried the boys where they lay, and the matter was never spoken of in that town again.

Until he decided to come forward to the authorities forty years later.

The bodies of the boys were exhumed. Only two of them could be idnetified, and one of these was Franz Fobke. Herr Fobke showed me a photograph of his brother's grave, within a special cemetery that had been created for the victims of the roving executions at the end of World War II.

Tomorrow: The true find from my visit with Herr Fobke.

[Erich]

Amazing story, Bill! Not that it happened--I'm sure this is not an isolated case, but your narrative puts it in color, so to speak, instead of in grainy black and white.
Erich

[RaymondG]

I can only echo Erich's comments on this. It is a terrible shame that it took 40 years to have the bodies exhumed and given a proper funeral.

Raymond

[Marcus]

An incredible series of events. Bill, you are a masterful stoyteller.
Can't wail 'til the next installment.

Rgds,

Marcus

[Will]

Well, here is what I suppose will be the last installment of this story.

As I spoke with Herr Fobke we talked about his father's life and times. I said that I thought that the story of his father's life would make an excellent book. Herr Fobke suggested that, if I was interested in undertaking such a project, he would provide any assistance that he could.Then he said "My father wrote a book, you know."
I replied that this was a complete surprise to me. I had been doing some rather extensive research on Hermann Fobke, and I had seen nothing at all to indicate that he had written a book.
"Yes", Herr Fobke explained, "There were many books being written on the early days of the National Socialist movement, and my father thought that most of them got things wrong. They were written by people who weren't there. So he wrote a book on the subject. He even sent the draft to Hitler to review and to make suggestions."
I was truly astonished at this point. I didn't understand, I said, how I could have failed to turn up any reference to a book by Hermann Fobke, let alone one that dealt with that period of history.
"It never got published", Herr Fobke explained. "It was ready to be published in late 1939, but the war came, and it never was printed."
I was truly dissapointed to hear that news. I was sure that it would have been a fascinating book, on a critical period in German history, written by a man who experienced it. An unfortunate loss for historians, I thought.
Herr Fobke rose and walked over to a cabinet. He took from it two thick loose leaf binders, brought them back to the table, and placed them in front of me.
"Here is my father's book", he said.
And so it was.
I had in front of me the original, final manuscript for Hermann Fobke's book, entitled "A Stosstrupp Member Speaks". The binders even had within them the photographs that were to illustrate the book. I should note here that if Hitler did indeed make any notations or suggestions about the book, they were not done on the manuscript that I was looking at. This was pretty much the "ready to go to the printer" draft.
Herr Fobke said "Take that with you. You can make a copy and send the original back to me. If you decide to write a book on my father that might help."

For several days I may well have been the most nervous tourist in Germany, for I had in my luggage not only Hermann Fobke's medals and memorabilia, but an unseen, one-of-a-kind manuscript by a former member of the Stosstrupp and one of the first Gauleiters of the Nazi Party. We all have horror stories about lost luggage. I was truly afraid of this becoming one of them!

Fortunately, everything made it safely back to the States. I copied the manuscript and personally returned the original to Herr Fobke in Germany several months later.

The manuscript was, of course, in German. I retained the services of someone fluent in German to translate the book. Unfortunately, he was only able to translate about a dozen pages before he became unable to continue with the project due to other commitments. And so the book remains now in my own cabinet. But those few pages proved quite interesting. Two points of note:

Hermann Fobke wrote that the commander of the Munich detachment of the Stosstrupp did not, in 1923, want his men confused with the rank and file SA men. He therefore directed that the SA men who were also members of the Stosstruppe place black trim on their Party armbands. Later, when the SS was created, it traced its lineage back to the Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler and, to indicate this, the SS adopted the Party armband with black stripes, just as it had been worn by the Munich detachment of the Stosstrupp.

Another item: Fobke wrote that the commander of the Munich detachment of the Stosstrupp did not even like the use of the brown shirts. Therefore, at his own expense, he purchased a particular type of surplus uniform. He then had special insignia made for them. These uniforms were then worn by the Munich Stosstrupp members.

I have never revealed this fact before. To prevent anyone from attempting to fake this uniform, which perhaps would be regarded as the rarest of SS uniforms, I will not go into detail about the special insignia that was made for it. I will simply say this: If you were to find one of these uniforms it would be an imperial era tunic and breeches with insignia that made no sense for an imperial era uniform. It might even have the early black-edged party armband on it. I have thought that if anyone saw one of these uniforms their initial reaction would be "That's something that somebody put together to try and pawn it off as something else."

But, if anyone ever turns up the type of odd-looking uniform that I've described, if you have an imperial-era military uniform that has insignia that no one can explain except to say that "It's not Imperial German", feel free to send me a picture. If someone does turn one of these up, I will gladly supply them with an exceprt from the Fobke manuscript that gives the full particulars of this unfiorm, the uniform of the Munich detachment of the "Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler".

[Napalm]

Fantastic story Will, and thks for posting such an interesting history of Herr Fobke.

[Rob Johnson]

I simply don't know how I haven't seen this thread until now, but let me just chime in and say that after spending the better part of the last hour reading though your posts, Bill, this has to be one of the most fascinating and enjoyable threads I've read anywhere in the last several months! Thank you so much for taking the time to post all that you have and for sharing this story with the community.

An equally big "Thanks" to Herr Hritz for sharing his jaw-dropping Stosstruppemütze with us. If there were ever an item that could qualify as truly rare, this cap would have to be damn close to the tip-top of that list (well, in my opinion, anyway!) This is the only surviving example I have ever seen, and - thanks to Bill - to be able to now have so much information on Fobke, the cap's original owner, is just... incredible!

Simply outstanding, Bob. This is the type of stuff that motivates me to continue collecting attributable pieces and burring myself in the researching aspect of the hobby.

An invigorating and most informative and enjoyable thread :thumbup:


Rob

[RussellM]

Bill, that is such an outstanding story! I wonder what else is written in the manuscript? It would certainly make for a very interesting book when it is translated. Many thanks for taking the time to share this experience with the forum. This most interesting and valuable thread should be pinned! The relationship you have forged has un-covered so much, I'm sure this thread will be re-read over and again by many members.

Regards
Russ

[Erich S]

Bill, I also want to thank you for this fantastic piece of history and I'm sorry it's now over. I hope you still retain the Fobke grouping in your collection and never part with it. Best, Erich

[laurens]

Very interesting thread! Thanks for sharing your story :thumbup:

[Adrian Stevenson]

Simply stunning! Many thanks Bill :thumbup:

I have pinned this thread plus copied it to the "Outstanding threads forum" too for maximum deserved coverage.

Cheers, Ade.

[Bob Hritz]

Thank you, Bill, for the fascinating information. The manuscript should be published and it would be a treasure for collector insight into a fascinating period in history, by someone who was not only there, but recorded his thoughts, at that time.

And than you for allowing me to show this photo of Herr Hermann Fobke's son, wearing the cap while sitting on his mother's (Frau Fobke) lap during a Stosstruppe Hitler gathering.

Bob Hritz

[Bob Hritz]

This tunic, of a former member of the Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler was brought back by the same veteran as the Hermann Fobke mutze. It is not named, but I display it with the cap.

Bob Hritz

[RaymondG]

Brilliant thread, Bill. Thanks for the additional images, Bob as they are excellent.

The manuscript certainly has some historical significance as another viewpoint of the period and should be published.

Raymond

[Marcus]

Bill,

I don't know when I've enjoyed a thread more than this one. You've left us wanting more. I hope you are able to publish a book with Fobke's manuscript and your personal story with Herr Fobke's son. New revelations and insight into the Third Reich period rarely if ever surface anymore. Now to look HARD for some photos of that Imperial style, Stosstruppe AH uniform!

Bob,

thank you for sharing your Stossstruppe mutze with us and helping to kick start this thread. You truly have an amazing collection!:thumbup:



Best Wishes,

Marcus

[Will]

I'm glad that you fellows found this interesting, and I appreciate the comments.

By the way...The little boy wearing Bob's Stosstrupp cap was in fact the son with whom I met in the narrative above. I remember telling Herr Fobke, when he showed me that photo, that I actually knew where the cap was! He found that fascinating.

He told me that at the end of the war the area in which his family was living was first reached by French troops. He said that they came to his family's apartment, where they were very well mannered. They accidentally broke a window in searching, but they apologized and repaired it.

The French were succeeded by the Americans, who also came to the apartment. Apparently the Yanks, I'm sorry to say, were less mannered than the French and, as Herr Fobke told me, "Things started going out the door". And not just uniforms, but items such as stamp collections. Herr Fobke laughed as he recalled that on the wall in their apartment was a picture of Hitler. An American soldier said that the picture reflected obvious National Socialist sympathies. Herr Fobke said his mother announced that it was most decidedly NOT a picture of Hitler.
"Well, who is it, then?" asked the American.
"Why, that's Germany's Unknown Soldier", his mother answered.

[Napalm]

Will, do you happen to know whether the family apartment was picked out specifically for searching or was all property in the area searched? Did the neighbours point the french/americans to the Fobke household?
Thks

[Will]

It was my impression that the Fobke residence was visited as a matter of happenstance and routine, as other residences were searched as well.

[RussellM]

Many thanks also to Derek, Bob C and Bob H for showing some outstanding pics and items from their collections!

Regards
Russ

[Derek C]

Thank you for posting the photo of the cap in wear. It must have been taken in 1936 or later as they wear the honorary cufftitle.
The original uniform was indeed Imperial. I have never found particularly good shots of it. The famous photo of the Stosstrupp in their truck doesn't reveal too much about the tunic but in this view you can see that it had slash pockets and a high buttoned front.
Derek

[Napalm]

I found one last night on a polish website that I didn't bookmark aggghhh!! and it was crystal ckear.. Anybody here speak polish?

Found the site but can'r navigate back to the stosstroppe uniform :-)


http://www.dws-xip.com/reich/ss/ss.html

[Marcus]

Thank you for posting the photo of the cap in wear. It must have been taken in 1936 or later as they wear the honorary cufftitle.
The original uniform was indeed Imperial. I have never found particularly good shots of it. The famous photo of the Stosstrupp in their truck doesn't reveal too much about the tunic but in this view you can see that it had slash pockets and a high buttoned front.
Derek

Derek,

Thank you for sharing this image of the Stosstrupp-Hitler members marching. You reminded me, "in their truck" that I have seen photos of the special Imperial style uniform before in A. Mollo's book.
There is also a shot of Stabswache in 1925, most members still wearing the Stosstrupp-AH tunics and armbands with black stripes.

Marcus

[Rob Johnson]

This tunic, of a former member of the Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler was brought back by the same veteran as the Hermann Fobke mutze. It is not named, but I display it with the cap.

Bob Hritz



My God, Bob...

If I could sell off my entire collection for that mannequin (tunic, medals, cap) I would be 100% content for the rest of my collecting days. Seriously! What you have there represents probably one of the most rare and impressive examples of early NSDAP history one could ever hope to own; something which very, very, very few collectors will ever have the pleasure of owning. I am simply in awe :w00t:

Can you tell us what number/who's Blutorden that is?

Rob

[Bob Hritz]

Rob,

The tunic and cap came together and I have not been able to identify the owner of the tunic. The only effects with the tunic were the stickpin, a package of cigarettes and a very early NSDAP matchbox holder. The Blood Order ribbon came on the tunic pocket and I have added the Blood Order and other awards for the display.

Bob Hritz

[Marcus]

Bob,
That tunic is awesome! I wonder if the TK stickpin was from the Wehrwolf organization or a special pin worn by all former Stosstrupp-AH members, what ever it is, I like it.
Neat that you also found a pack of smokes and matches. The only thing I've ever found in a tunic was fountain pen tips.

Marcus

[BOB COLEMAN]

Will-
We all have special items in our collection that will always be with us unless we stop collecting. Your Fobke grouping I know is one of those things. I wish to thank you for sharing the story of this man and the history of his family. This has turned in to a great thread.

[Erich S]

Bill, did you ever find out from Herr Fobke on how the BO and GPB got on the collector market?

[Will]

Erich....
Herr Fobke's brother sold the Blood Order and Gold Party Badge at some time in the past, as he also sold Hermann Fobke's Party membership book and the award document for the GPB.

Bob....The Stosstruppe brownshirt may not be named, but I would think that identification might be relatively easy.

We know the SA gruppe of which he was a member from the colors of the collar tabs and buttons. We also know that he was a member of the Stosstrupp and a recipient of the Blood Order and a long-serving member of the SA.

We can start from the assumption that his Blood Order was awarded for actual participation in the Putsch, and that he was not among the second wave of recipients.
We could also assume that he participated in the Putsch as a member of the Stosstrupp.
Pfatzwall's book on the Blood Order has a list of recipients, with BO number, and the unit of which they were a member when the Putsch occurred.
So get someone to look in the Archives at the SA files for the members of the Stosstrupp who participated in the Putsch. Were any of them in the SA gruppe reflected by the tabs and buttons? If so, did any of them attain the rank reflected on the collar tabs? If so, and if there is more than 1 name, you've got the candidates. The files should have info on height and weight and can allow extrapolation to determine shirt size and make some judgments.
However, it is also entirely possible that the combination of SA gruppe, Stosstrupp membership/Putsch participation will give only one name, and that's your guy.

[Bob Hritz]

Will,

It is too much of a coinsidence that a vet brings back Fobke's cap and also brings back another's Stosstruppe Adolf Hitler brownshirt. There must have been a connection between the two owners, at it would make sense they were found together.

I do hot have Paetzwell's book, but I have a list of Blood Order numbers. My list does not have any status of assignment of the awardees. I also do not have the list of former Stosstrupp Hitler members, but a friend is working on getting that list.

Bob Hritz

[Will]

Hi Bob...

I know that it is a coincidence, and I also know that I certainly thought that they must have both belonged to Fobke when you shared the photos with me some years back. But my recollection is that upon reviewing all of Fobke's history, including his SA file, I could find no association between him and either the SA Gruppe reflected by the collar tabs/buttons, or the SA rank on the tabs. Every reference that I checked showed Fobke's political positions as a Gauleiter; Deputy Gauleiter; and SA Staff Leader for Gruppe Pommern. Additionally, in every photo of Fobke that I saw in which he was wearing a brownshirt , he had no collar tabs on it at all. It simply had the Stosstrupp cufftitle and perhaps the long service stripes.

So it is a curiosity, that's for sure. :confused1:

[Will]

Thank you for posting the photo of the cap in wear. It must have been taken in 1936 or later as they wear the honorary cufftitle.
The original uniform was indeed Imperial. I have never found particularly good shots of it. The famous photo of the Stosstrupp in their truck doesn't reveal too much about the tunic but in this view you can see that it had slash pockets and a high buttoned front.
Derek


Derek...
A nice photo!
In case anyone ever sees such a style of tunic offered for sale as a Stosstrupp tunic, I can say that the Fobke manuscript identifies the uniform as having a particular color of piping, and a particular style of shoulder straps.

[Marcus]

Bob,

If the Totenkopf stickpin is original to the tunic, then there might be one more clue, the TK pin is indeed from the Wehrwolf organization.

The following is from Robin Lumsden's Wehrwolf collection, as you can see the pin is seemingly identical to the one on your ST-AH tunic. Perhaps this bit of info will also be in the SA Archival files.

Marcus

[Derek C]

This photo from the Bundesarchiv may possibly be the best view we will get of the tunic Will refers to in his earlier posts.
Derek

[Will]

This photo from the Bundesarchiv may possibly be the best view we will get of the tunic Will refers to in his earlier posts.
Derek

I'm not sure, Derek. The uniform described by Fobke in his manuscript was piped, and included embroidered shoulder straps.

[Derek C]

Will,
The photographs seem to show some variations. Here is another picture of a member of the Stosstrupp. These men are definitely wearing shoulder straps although they do appear to be plain from this view. What was the embroidery you mention?
Note the cuff buttons.
Derek

[wilhelm saris]

As I have written in volume 3, pages 25 and 26, in 1937 a special uniform for the holders of the Blood Order (Blutordenträger) was authorized and sanctioned by the Amt für den 8/9 November 1923. All living BO's (with some exception) were supplied with the special uniform, which was only worn with very special occasions (mainly at the Feldherrnhalle). As far as known this uniform was not or hardly worn after the start of WWII, anyway after late 1939.
I enclose here a few photographs that are taken Novemner 11, 1939 at the Feldherrnhalle and have to do with the ceremonies for the victoms at the Bürgerbräukeller. Hitler attended there.
Look at them. No shoulder-straps or collar-patches are worn. The swastika brassard was and not even all do wear the same buckle/claw.

[wilhelm saris]

This is a copy from the official list from the NSDAP archives, dated December 3, 1937 with the names of Stosstrupp Adolf Hitler 1923-members.
I hope you enjoy it!

[Tristan]

This is a short video of the funeral service in 1939 showing the early SA tunic in wear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFJc4vD3KwE&feature=related

[Will]

Wilhelm...

I believe that we are writing about two different uniforms.

The uniform about which Fobke wrote in his unpublished memoirs was a uniform that was purchased for members of the Munich Stosstrup by their commander prior to the Putsch. That uniform was created from surplus World War I period supplies and modified to become a Munich Stosstrup uniform (for example, with the addition of black stripes for the armbands). The uniform also had piping of a particular color and shoulder straps with specific embroidery.

I believe that your post and the photographs refer to the "Traditions" uniform that was designed for all holders of the Blood Order after the Nazi Party came to power.

[wilhelm saris]

Hello Will,

this thread started as "Traditional uniform for Blood order Holders" and that is what I did show with my three photographs. Suchlike photographs were shown with the first post. This uniform was created by the "Amt für den 8/9. November 1923". The earliest worn SA-uniforms were its sample. I did not speak about Stosstrupp, who did wear adapted military uniforms.

The uniform for the Stosstrupp is not the traditional uniform, but looks in some ways the same, especially the cap. Parts were the basis for the later SA-uniform.

[Will]

Wilhelm...

You are absolutely correct!

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knew we were writing about two different uniforms.

The photographs that you find and post on the forum are absolutely superb!

Many thanks!

[Erich S]

I picked up the book Munich 1923 by John Dornberg and he describes one of these gents as J. Fobke. I think this may actually be Herrmann?

[Will]

Erich....

There is a version of that photo in which Hermann Fobke is present on the viewer's right. In the very first communication that I received from Herr Fobke he sent me a copy, with his handwritten designation of "Meine Vater" and an arrow pointing to his father. However, in most versions of the photo, such as the one that you have posted, Hermann Fobke is cropped out of the group shot. So the caption in the book was probably written for the wider photograph that includes Fobke, buy someone mistakenly published the cropped photo in the book!

[Erich S]

That makes sense Will because no of these gents looked like Fobke.

[Erich S]

Here's a photo of Fobke's tunic from the Ulric of England collection.

[Robin Lumsden]

Here's a photo of Fobke's tunic from the Ulric of England collection.

I've seen that photo before, somewhere.....................:D

[Will]

The tunic owned now by Ulric has this history:

It was brought back by an American veteran (you may recall that Herr Fobke told me that all sorts of things went out of the family's apartment when the Americans searched it).

It was acquired from the veteran by a California collector. At that time it had on the pocket an unnumbered Blood Order, which would indicate that recipients of the order could obtain duplicates so that it was not necessary to continually switch the order between uniforms.

The tunic was then acquired by Steve Wolfe, who in turn offered it for sale at a MAX Show several years ago, where Ulric purchased it.

Ulric advised me that some time before obtaining this tunic he had purchased a small paper grouping in Germany. The grouping consisted of some photos and a few documents. One of those documents was a formal certificate that reflected that the individual had made a monetary donation to the rehabilitation of the Brown House in Munich at the time that it was purchased by the Party to serve as its headquarters. The presence of this document from the Party was the main reason that Ulric purchased the grouping, as he had never seen it before. The donor? Hermann Fobke.
Ulric told me that he owned the tunic for some time before he realized that he had the same man's donation certificate.

[Erich S]

Thanks for the additional information Will. Do you still own his BO, GPB etc.?

[Will]

Thanks for the additional information Will. Do you still own his BO, GPB etc.?

No, I don't.

The Blood Order and Gold Party badge are now displayed on Fobke's tunic.

[Erich S]

Sorry that it's no longer in your collection but it's good that they're reunited with the tunic.

[Hans Holland]

This is a great topic. I really enjoyed reading the Fobke story. Reads like a novel.

The set Bob showed ( An example of the early uniform upon which the tradition uniform was based. The kampfbinde is a very early handmade example ) came out of my collection and was bought by Bob several years ago. Good to see it's in the right collection.

[Hans Holland]

Forgot to post the picture