SS Totenkopf Honor Ring SuperFake

[Gaspare]

There is a lot of hype about very good/excellent fakes of the HR. Believe or not but they are out there. Not mass production,,but enough to cause trouble and give others ideas about making a buck..

I've gotten emails over the last few years saying,,,'G'. stop ****ing writing about superfakes,,they don't exist and all this talk is ruining the market on HRs [?]..or,, There is no such thing, shut the **** up and show more original rings [!]

Well, a friend of GDC's Honor Ring forum who originally sent me photos of what I've started calling a SuperFake has posted another. It's a dam good fake!

There are at least 7 other rings forums out there. I put up this link not to support one over another but because there are some that want us/we all to believe there are no SF's! ,,that there are just the poor ass fakes floating around and not to worry.
Well, check out this fake! With some ageing or severe ageing to make it appear to be ground dug it would cause fits! OR, look how good it is,,imagine how good they will be in another year or 2!
So believe or not,,they are out there. It's the reason why many will not comment on HRs on photos alone now. Don won't even think about it,,you want a paper from him,,send the ring,,no ticky, no shirty......

So be careful. You going to buy a ring and don't know what your looking at, your in trouble. you'll need a good camera and be able to use it!
Good photos of every rune, skull, seam, birds eye view, complete engraving etc. and even then hopefully we all can help ,,so don't cry if you don't listen and do your homework.
Don't study the SF. study the originals!

http://daggers.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc...73/m/4120090075


*

[Richard Kimmel]

G... Based on the remarks that you have received over the years support the belief that I have had for many, many years that collectors make questionable purchases, not just HR's, yet do not want them to be shown as so and dealers or individuals ofering this type of material do not want you to bring these things to light.

Keep talking about them G and eventually what you are conveying may finally sink in within the hobby. The good Lord knows that I tried by self-publishing a book back in 1997 and you know the flak that I received.:thumbup:

Richard

[clevischi]

We have talked about it some weeks ago, for sure a item that could be sold for more that 8000 USD can found someone to do a good fake job.

[Mike Peters]

Over the years I’ve heard both sides , some Collectors support publishing Books that show what details to look for …others are dead against it and feel that only teaches the Fakers how to do their job. I don’t believe publishing the in depth details will help the Fakers at all ..I feel that the more we share, research and yes ..even publish --the harder we will make it for the fakers to sell their **** and will only show them how impossible it will be for them to make a perfect fake.

Without a doubt , they are going to miss some small detail --something …and we’ll pick up on it.

Look at the direction the RK community took … SEM testing, Spectrum Analysis and “mapping” each individual fingerprint or Die Flaw for the respective makers . All of this information is now in the Collectors hands because of Dietrich’s Book on the Knight Cross . Frank H’s Book on the GAB and Marc’s Flak,Tom’s CCC ..all examples of the new standard that’s been set for our Militaria Reference Books ..The fakers will never be able to reproduce each and every original attribute and the many Die Flaws that can only be seen using 20X and higher magnification …at least not in our lifetime. And 50 years from now , there will be a lot less “out-of-the-woodwork” items popping up out of nowhere. I bet almost every high end RK/HR/GPB etc will have already been photographed and have a “lineage “ documenting the Collections they were in ..Like the Hans Grimm set owned by Erich, George Stimson’s AH Badge or my Dr Ernst Boepple GPB … soon we (the community) will know what’s out there ..and who has what.
You know …this will actually apply to most items including Tunics ,Helmets etc

Gaspare ..remember that HR I posted on GDC for the collector in NH ? It turned out to be a fake ..Don Boyle recognized the engraved name and even knew the Original was still in Jim A’s collection….the result ? That fake was exposed immediately .
I’m convinced that this is the direction we’re headed in.

Gaspare , your new Book will help get us to that point sooner but , I think we should temporarily take your Computer away and force you to finish it. :sneaky2:

[K. Lindblom]

Over the years I’ve heard both sides , some Collectors support publishing Books that show what details to look for …others are dead against it and feel that only teaches the Fakers how to do their job. I don’t believe publishing the in depth details will help the Fakers at all ..I feel that the more we share, research and yes ..even publish --the harder we will make it for the fakers to sell their **** and will only show them how impossible it will be for them to make a perfect fake.

Without a doubt , they are going to miss some small detail --something …and we’ll pick up on it.

Look at the direction the RK community took … SEM testing, Spectrum Analysis and “mapping” each individual fingerprint or Die Flaw for the respective makers . All of this information is now in the Collectors hands because of Dietrich’s Book on the Knight Cross . Frank H’s Book on the GAB and Marc’s Flak,Tom’s CCC ..all examples of the new standard that’s been set for our Militaria Reference Books ..The fakers will never be able to reproduce each and every original attribute and the many Die Flaws that can only be seen using 20X and higher magnification …at least not in our lifetime. And 50 years from now , there will be a lot less “out-of-the-woodwork” items popping up out of nowhere. I bet almost every high end RK/HR/GPB etc will have already been photographed and have a “lineage “ documenting the Collections they were in ..Like the Hans Grimm set owned by Erich, George Stimson’s AH Badge or my Dr Ernst Boepple GPB … soon we (the community) will know what’s out there ..and who has what.
You know …this will actually apply to most items including Tunics ,Helmets etc

Gaspare ..remember that HR I posted on GDC for the collector in NH ? It turned out to be a fake ..Don Boyle recognized the engraved name and even knew the Original was still in Jim A’s collection….the result ? That fake was exposed immediately .
I’m convinced that this is the direction we’re headed in.

Gaspare , your new Book will help get us to that point sooner but , I think we should temporarily take your Computer away and force you to finish it. :sneaky2:

I think all you guys who like this "Nazi stuff" are crazy. :w00t::rolleyes::D

[Richard Kimmel]

That's why I left the mainstream of militaria collecting per se`, so people would stop referring to me as being "crazy" :lol:

Richard

[Gaspare]

"Gaspare , your new Book will help get us to that point sooner but , I think we should temporarily take your Computer away and force you to finish it"

Mike,, I know most are freaking out about my book not being done yet. Craig took a few years to do his HR book. And, most of the info was there already and available to him.It's only about ONE ring!! Other than a few new bits of information it will basically be Dons book,,but with better photos and page numbers:biggrin:...

I have 100's of ring photos. Rings from just about every military and Para military organization,,,and a brief history of the unit, and of course the ring.. There is a gigantic chapter on reproductions,, a Chapter on how originals and reproductions are made. A chapter on 'Special' rings and more .I shelved the idea a couple times and only beginning of this year have I said I'm going to go thru with it. I'm really hoping to be completely done by February.. If the Publisher is going to drag his ass on editing and printing then I guess he'll lose out as I have an alternative publisher that won't..

*As far as these SFs.. I ask Don many times about them. He doesn't care one bit about them. He bases everything on originals. Comparisons,,silver knowledge,,minute detail, flaws etc. as you mention. He's seen them and he finds them interesting but he does not worry about them..
The collectors that get burnt on them are the ones who don't bother to study themselves,, impatient,, etc..
A few have mentioned that as good as it is there is still something that you'll see that will help you know its a fake.. BUT, what I'm concerned with is,,Give them another year or so to get even better. Then age it to resemble the ground dug examples. The flaw and/or defect could now be gone and what is left is a seemingly original dug ring! :blink:

[Erich S]

I think that when Don starts to be concerned with the SF's it's time for everyone to worry!

[Mike Peters]

I understand what you’re saying Gaspare …If a fake is worn down so much that you can’t positively ID or find the “fingerprints”, that’s going to make it harder to prove it’s a fake. That will leave “wiggle room” for the excuses and more Collectors will end up being ripped off after they convince themselves it’s real.
If it ever does get to that point and the market is flooded with these worn SF’s …I bet the highly worn (or even damaged) examples will drop in value. Our Collecting Community might or won’t know what to think of them BUT , they’ll be afraid to pay top dollar or brush them aside completely.
Look at how the fakers tried using the “Ground Dug” stories to cover fake badges …myself , I won’t buy a ground dug item for 2 reasons. And I’m sure there are many that feel the same way about it as I do.
I never asked him but , I wonder if Don has ever had to research a Ring that’s so worn that he can’t ID any key flaws …if it’s that far gone , all you could rely on is the science of metallurgy
I'd like to hear what Andy feels about this ...

[Gaspare]

Robin L. used to have a completely won down smooth HR. Just a small nub where the skull was. Great ring,,maybe he still has a photo or someone else does..
anyway,,,the inside band was fine! Worn a bit but it was one of those 'one lookers'. It was a good ring and the on'y way to tell was by looking at the inside..

I think your right Mike,,the price will drop on the really worn HRs in the future as the copies get better.............

[Mike Peters]

It's Obvious the fakers do not hold a high opinion of the Collector. I mean , look at some of the Fantasy Nazi items they’ve come up with over the last 5+ years and ..you can figure out their marketing plan . That **** is for the Fast Profit and targeting the newer collector .
The high end fakes take more time – more work , attention to details and yet they STILL always screw something up . They don’t approach it with the eye of the Collector ..and IMO , they never will. As long as we keep an eye on them ..and our Forums do their jobs - we can sort them out.

[dtl70]

I have an extremely worn original Honor Ring that was sent to Don for authentication and CoA.
Derek

[Richard Kimmel]

The fakers never did hold opinions of the collector very high. It is always much easier to publish a book on originals as opposed to the myriad of fakes & repros. Granted there are many known fakes and repros in the market but there are equally or more unknown ones.

IMHO I feel that many new and old alike collectors get burned is not so much the lack of experience as it is their diversification rather than specialization.

[Mike Peters]

IMHO I feel that many new and old alike collectors get burned is not so much the lack of experience as it is their diversification rather than specialization.

I don’t know Richard , I’d have to disagree with you on that one. I’ve always been a “Broad Spectrum” Collector and many times that style of Collecting can give an “insight” into a mentality and “flavor” of the era ..manufacturing techniques used by various Companies , markings , materials used and when ..there’s an overall “feel”. Some Collectors refer to this as developing a 3d “Eye” . There are parallels that can be made and standards that they pretty much stayed with up until the late war . But , late war wouldn’t apply to the Rings …imagine seeing a Kriegs Metal Honor Ring :w00t:( found in Latvia ) ? A simple example –if we saw a worn Ring with a Blob of Silver Solder showing (a little) under the edge of the Skull or a Skull applied crooked ..that would be a Red Flag. I’m sure some collectors would say something like that was a Variant and totally acceptable ..not me , that wouldn’t be consistent with the quality we’re use to seeing on these Rings.
Or ..what if you ran into a DAF or NS Flag with 6 or 8 RZM marked Rings sewn on the edge ? I have never seen that done as they always used 7 Rings ...Political SB Gorgets - 31 Links on the Chain etc etc ...they were anal about some things
That “insight” or 3d Eye is only another Tool we can use and will never replace research. As with everything these days …researching an item is the only way to be sure of what we are looking at. That’s why reference Books are so important and why GASPARE BETTER GET OFF HIS TOOKAS AND GO TO PRINT (just kidding G):D

[Richard Kimmel]

Mike

I probably shouldn't have included old collectors in general with my thought as with the new ones, but then again there are those who have ten years of solid experience and those with one years experience ten times. Believe me, I've made the mistake early on with the shotgun method and back in 1988 rid myself of my entire collection save for a few special artifacts.

Novice collectors should begin by deciding on a specific area, then narrow it down to more specifics within that area and not approaching the hobby using a shotgun method of purchasing, buying anything and everything while entertaining the thought that this stuff is not going to be around too much longer. When I bought my first genuine Junker pilot badge it cost me 40.00. I'm certain that you remember those days?

I'm still from the "Old School" in that if it looks good, feels good and smells good that it is in all probability good and I now add to that at least you are on the right track and if the price is right then buy it. Just keep an eye out for the express trains (dealers who play the dealer to dealer referral game). You see a lot of these at just about every show.

An old loony from across the great pond (shall remain nameless) once told me that "If wishes were horses, beggers would ride". In fact, he wrote that in one of his books directed to me.

I will see Gaspare on Saturday at the Union Show -- I'm waiting for him to get back to me on my offer to put him in touch with the right people at my publisher Schiffer Books.

[Robin Lumsden]

Robin L. used to have a completely won down smooth HR. Just a small nub where the skull was. Great ring,,maybe he still has a photo or someone else does..
anyway,,,the inside band was fine! Worn a bit but it was one of those 'one lookers'. It was a good ring and the on'y way to tell was by looking at the inside..


Here it is................

[RaymondG]

Thanks for posting it up, Robin.

From memory, was it found in a river?

Raymond

[honorringman]

Since people have been collecting which goes back over 2000 years there have been fakes and always will be. When ever there is money to be made there will be the dishonest person who will capitalize on it. That is what is good about forums such as this and the members who put thier knowledge and input into them that hep us all. I have heard the term SUPER FAKE for about 2 years now . I believe it started in California. I personally do not like the term but would rather call them what they are High Quality Fakes as we see in meadals, cloth etc. I have seen many High Quality Fakes that are over 50years old nice seam etc. Then I have seen some of the High Quality Fakes that are currently out there. I can tell you the ones made over 50 years ago are a lot better as far as detail goes and metal quality. I am lucky as I am friends with many the major jewelers in Northeast Pa. were I live . One just called me down last year to see his new $35,000 toy which was a machine to look at metal conent and even jewels themself and is 100% accurate. Great item to have. I have looked at Honor Rings that have been totaly worn with no runics or oak leaves the engraving was intact but worn. Yes it is hard to tell unless you know were it came from 100% or have jewelers with the macines that can help you like I have. I looed at a ring about a year ago for a major California dealer who had purchased an Honor Ring at a military show Germany . After he came back he started to dought himself and sent the ring to me .It was a High Quality Fake. He waed a certificate so he could send it back and get his money. The funny thing is this dealer has owned about 20 original rings over the past 4 or 5 years. This is only to show that the best of us can get caught up in the excitment of finding an Honor Ring at a great price . When purchasing, purchase with you head and not your heart. My rule of thumb that I tell everyone wether they purchase an Honor Ring , medals, daggers, signed Documents etc. if you are 99% sure it is real and 1% is dought do not purchase it because you will always be looking for someone to reassure you it is real . You will sleep better at night even if you passed up on an original item and also use reference books and forum such as this before making a major purchase it can save you thousands of dollars. Knowledge is power lets not give the dishonest all the kowledge that is why some things are best left un-said. Best wishes on Boyle

[yorik63]

I am the owner of several rings, all have been authenticated by Don Boyle. I had the pleasure of meeting Don and Andy over the past several years at Max shows
and find them to be people of the highest integrity. I agree with Don's assessment that we should not reveal all of the tricks of the trade when it comes to identifying the fakes. I am quite shocked at the quality of the fakes and it never ceases to amaze me the lengths that people will go to in order to perpetrate a scam. My hat is off to Don, Andy and many others out there(including the creators/moderators of this forum) who are always helping the other honest guys.
Thanks,
Mark